Southern Baptist leaders covered up sexual abuse claims and kept a secret database of offenders in its clergy - but rarely punished them, bombshell church report claims

Daily Mail UK ^ | May 22, 2022 | ap

[daniel1212]

"Church self governance is for civil matters not for criminal ones. If a pastor stabs a deacon is that suppose to be handled in house?" Thus we see that this issue extends beyond the scandal at issue, and I would say that in your example, the deacon can go right to the police, but as for the church, if witnessed and the deacon wishes it to go forward then it does. If the deacon does not, then it does not. Apart from immediate threat, as in your self-governing household and btwn members, then indeed a self-governing NT church should not normally go first to any outside secular agency in such matters, any more than when there is personal theft btwn members.

But all this can really get into details, and I would say such texts as Matthew 18:15 - which can lead to excommunication and thus the civil authorities dealing with the sin - do not distinguish btwn such civil and criminal sins by a member against another, but teach that btwn members, the church is first to deal with such. And consistent with faith which does works correspondent to repentance, then the guilty are to make restitution for past sins. (Acts 26:20) Which includes confessing present or past criminal behaviors and dealing with such.

And note that broadly speaking, the distinction btwn civil matters and criminal ones and circumstances of such are sometimes not clear. Would an ongoing, unlawful incestuous relationship such "as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife" (1 Corinthians 5:1) be simply a civil matter? Or if a repentant member confesses that he used to deal drugs, or rob people do you immediately call the police, or tell him/her she is responsible to confess such? If such such does not, then that is when reporting can take place. Meanwhile authorities themselves who allowed negligence by those who allowed abuse or other criminal activity are to be held accountable by the flock.

Thus I am not arguing that no criminal crimes need be reported to civil authorities, in particular ongoing abuse of minor, and not that even the repentant are not to be held accountable for past or present personal damages, but that allegations of such should first internally investigated, and the guilty are to make restitution for past damages or settle criminal complaints, before the church entrusts the civil authorities since the guilty will not deal with crimes, or as required by law.

" If there were real men in the church the pastor would be running to the police because he would be terrified of what the men of the church would do to him, especially the fathers of the children abused."

This second statement basically conflates with self governance, as did some active shooter cases, however, in allegations fabrication can and does occur, if as a minority of cases and proper investigation needs to verify charges.

It is due to the widespread corruption in churches that we see immediate recourse to the state, but that is not supposed to be the norm, and again, needing the state to deal with neglect of the church sets a dangerous precedent. As it is, the only time I see the NT church involving the civil law and authorities is when they themselves are abusing the law. What the NT church was taught as regards offenses and responses and self-governance includes,

if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. (Matthew 18:15-17)

It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:1-5)

Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. (1 Timothy 5:19-20)

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 6:1-6)

But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (Acts 26:20)

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. (Ephesians 5:3-4)

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:42-44)

Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. (Ephesians 4:28)

Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: (2 Timothy 4:14)

And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned? (Acts 22:25)

But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out. (Acts 16:37)

For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Cæsar. (Acts 25:11)

[daniel1212]

"Lack of centralized leadership is not a bug, it's a feature"

However, both in the OT and the NT, a form of supreme court existed in order to judge and rule on cases which could not be resolved on lower levels.

If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the Lord thy God shall choose; And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:...And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the Lord thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel. Deuteronomy 17:8-9,12)

And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, (Acts 15:23-25) And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem. (Acts 16:4) Rome, with its elitist arrogant presumption (even of ensured veracity) and abuse and manifestly false doctrine has poisoned this concept, though it exists on a denominational scale, however, while I know of no body even close to the manifest apostles of Scripture, (1 Co. 6:4-10) yet a body of holy, wise, mature male elders overseers, subject to Scripture, to which all church could appeal should be a goal.

" .The entire upper rungs of the organization could crash and burn into ashes, and faithful member churches would not be changed in the slightest. "

IF the flock looks to Scripture as the sure supreme standard for faith and morality, versus what Catholics are supposed to do. However, most of the flock look for the meaning of Scripture based upon how the leaders translate it in their own lives and that of the church. Thus even most evangelical churches are much only that in name around here.

[Izzatso]

WaPo now reporting that the SBC is going to publish the names of the alleged abusers:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2022/05/24/southern-baptist-executive-committee-meeting-sex-abuse/

[joesbucks]

It’s horrific that it happens in public schools. It’s insidious when it happens in the halls of the bride of Christ. Why put God back in the public schools when He apparently isn’t shepherding the church all that well.

[joesbucks]

What difference does it make if it’s conservative Christian’s or liberal politicians and teachers?

[cherry]

oh no, no, no, no...these are protestants....its only Catholics that have trouble with their hierarchy.....

[joesbucks]

I’m not Catholic, but the SNC delighted in pointing their collective fingers at Catholics.

[Antoninus]

As a Catholic, I would like to welcome our Southern Baptist brothers and sisters to the club. All Christian churches have been infiltrated by this filth. Our failure to purge it without hesitation has left us open to attacks from the very people who call this filth "normal, natural and even virtuous."

Note, it's always Christian churches they go after. Never secular institutions. Never government institutions.

Ask yourself why?

[Skywise]

You’re blaming God for this?

[joesbucks]

You can blame all of them when the game is rigged to cover it up.

[joesbucks]

Absolutely. If all that happens is God’s will or plan, then how can you not?

[joesbucks]

Well circling the wagons will resolve it all. This as well as the Catholic revelations are not a media vendetta, but the result of complaints brought forward by those victimized. Same happens in schools, scouts, daycares etc.

All of it is bad. It’s worse when it’s done under the cloak of God.

[Skywise]

Poor baby.

[joesbucks]

Who alone had the power to stop this?

[Skywise]

The pastors teachers in public schools.

[joesbucks]

They’re human. And because humans aren’t perfect, they failed. Only one is perfect. Or is said to be. And He let us down.

[Skywise]

If He let you down then God isn’t perfect, is He?

Ergo he’s human and gets a pass like your esteemed teachers along with their perversions.

[joesbucks]

Since He let us down, we’ve been defrauded by those who told us differently.

[Skywise]

Just you.

[joesbucks]

No. All of us. If you’ll blame others for the same outcome, why not God.