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Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
The word there is aions/eons. I don’t think I need to define it for you.
No death on earth before sin. No death on other sinless worlds (where super great people exist).
Did Jesus die for them also?
——>Of course they were sinless before they sinned, hence their need of a Savior.
If they hadn’t sinned, they wouldn’t need a Savior. There would be nothing to save them from. They would have lived forever. But, I’m glad you admitted that they were SINLESS before they SINNED, because they were. There is no sin in other sinless worlds. Get it?
——>Did Jesus die for them also?
Why would He need to? THEY HAVEN’T SINNED. THEY AREN’T FALLEN. Did Jesus have to die for Adam and Eve before they sinned, OR AFTER??? Get it?
“Get it?”
Yep. I get the stupidity of it all completely well.
You believe your belief system. That is not the same as believing the truth, Phil.
How old were you when you got tangled up with the SDA?
Too bad you can’t produce those 12 “LAW EXPERTS” you keep telling me exposed EGW’s wickedness. WHERE ARE THEY? You said you had them. I’d like to read what they have to say about EGW’s wickedness.
4th generation but much more serious beginning in my 20’s.
——>You believe your belief system. That is not the same as believing the truth
I could say the exact same thing about you (and your friends).
—> Your ability to respond to a comment not directed to you is astonishing.
Thank you n00b!!
I’ve been proudly responding to comments not directed to me since Dec.5, 2000!
“I could say the exact same thing about you (and your friends).”
And that system of our belief would be the Bible, so have at it. They are my friends, yes, but more importantly, my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. I hope someday soon that you will be too.
—> “Were Adam and Eve sinless before they “sinned”?”
We’ll, only if our Thievin’ Prophetess says they were sinless!!!!
- Sycophantic SDA Dude
😁
This is an open forum, francis.
The blasphemy is breathtaking, eh? And poor of spirit souls like our SDA stumbling apologist for the blasphemies is entirely unable to see it. The carnal mind on hidious display.
ping
You ain’t kiddin’, brother. I have learned that the SDA are Jewish and there are people occupying other planets who, like our Lord Christ Jesus, are sinless. Who knew?
(Funny how people take the good Jewish promises but never take the bad ones.)
It’s REALLY bad when they pretend to observe Scripture’s authority in theory, but then in practice elevate something else above it.
See: the claim that Roman Catholicism wrote the Bible, as shown a thousand or two posts ago, thus elevating Catholic theology over the Word of God.
See also: Mormonism in general and the claims of being prophets.
See also: SDA and the claim of EGW being a prophet.
See also: Fatima.
Those last three are painfully obvious; they’re trying to override the genuine Word with claims about getting messages right from God.
And yet, people choose to believe them. I’d shake my head if this wasn’t predicted in the Word.
“I’d shake my head if this wasn’t predicted in the Word.”
Amen to that, Luircin. As far as I know, there always seems to be another book that is supposed to help “guide” the cultic person in their religion.
I thank Our Good Lord that we are clear of the serious error of putting Him second to anything. Also, I thank Him that it’s simply putting trust in His person rather than a religion.
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