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Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
And I suppose that may bother a guy who is working on the Hamster Wheel of Useless Works and Perpetual Guilt, that mere sinners might be in heaven - you know, the very people Christ came to save - and now people racking up their own (worthless) righteousness through (worthless) works!
"It's not fair, they shout, as they smell bacon and can't touch it.🥓" "It's not fair they shout, as they work their (worthless) wheel!!!😫
No, it's not fair that anyone should ever go to heaven, since all are sinners, born separated from God.
But the grace of God made a way.
"It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost.""For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
From what we know, Ravi, as a sinner, found that way - Christ.
None of that excuses any sin of his, nor the sin of anyone else.
Nor does anyone's sin invalidate the infinite sacrifice of the life and blood of Christ, nor the promises of God.
Well and truly stated. Amen
Ravi, a professed "born-againer", claiming grace, claiming the blood of Jesus Christ, claiming the promises set forth to the redeemed. THEN, he sets out on a life of rape, adultery, and using his title and the name of God to facilitate that life. AND, if unrepentant, you are telling me he gets a free pass to heaven??? At the moment of his conversion, Ravi had no sin. He was blameless. GRACE DOES NOT, AND WILL NEVER cover continued, willful sin.
Hebrews 10: 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
It could not be MORE clear. OSAS is a doctrine of the Nicolaitans and then directly, from the mind of Satan.
——>Nor does anyone’s sin invalidate the infinite sacrifice of the life and blood of Christ, nor the promises of God.
Unrepentant, continual, willful sin certainly does. Hebrews 10, and specifically verses 26-31, refute your ridiculous claims.
For any lurkers watching the self-destruction of SDA false teaching...
Hebrews 10 does not say anyone will lose their salvation.
Which is a good time to also note:
.....................................False World Cultic Principle #8
Cults always use the "See & Say" method to find words that sound like the false doctrines they teach.
.....................................
The cults contradict The Word of God, twisting it to say what their god, satan, wants it to say to capture quickly the naive and unlearned. Believe the cult’s proclamations? Not so much
And yet you haven’t answered my questions.
It’s kind of staggering how some people just relish the thought of a Christian burning in hell forever over some unconfessed sin they missed confessing.
It’s like blood in the water to them.
You could simply say, “Just because someone claims belief in Christ for salvation doesn’t mean they actually do. If you realize you are sinning unrepentantly, watch yourself, for you may not believe in Christ like you think.” And that would solve the problem of any concerns you have for anyone’s eternal life.
Instead, you come storming onto these threads and get angry when your belligerence gets responded to in kind.
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
At the moment of receiving grace, we all began a new life (born again). We started fresh. Every sin committed in that past life was forgiven. We were blameless in the sight of God. The TRUTH is that God’s law demanded death to the sinner. And, only the blood of Jesus Christ could ever cover that, the blood of the COVENANT.
Maybe YOU should do some research into God’s Covenant, and the Ark of His Covenant, and the common denominator? Maybe start here in Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
The old and new covenants have the same common denominator, God’s law. And by not obeying or openly REJECTING the law of God, one is in effect, REJECTING the new covenant.
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/covenant-seal.htm
We DID tell you, Phil. You just didn’t listen.
Loss of heavenly rewards.
Guilt of grieving our heavenly Father.
In extremis, early physical death.
There you go. Now you can shut up about it.
Then YOU, metmom, boatbums, mhgintn, and ampu, and a bunch of others, had better get your stories straight. They all say that those are CONSEQUENCES, not PENALTIES.
You and they will say anything to relieve you from the “burden” of keeping God’s commandments, won’t you? You certainly do not have to keep God’s eternal, moral law for salvation, and for that matter, the 7th-day-Sabbath, do you,
even though the bible clearly says you do? You certainly do not have to OBEY God after GRACE, right? Because, you are already in the New Jerusalem, and YOU ALL have already been judged at the moment of Grace. It’s a done deal. (ridiculous assertion)
Hebrews 10 CLEARLY tells us what will happen to those who continue in willful, unrepentant sin (lawlessness). But then again, you and yours are IMMUNE from the effects of salvation-ending sin, aren’t you? You have ALREADY been judged, haven’t you? You are all waiting for the Pre Trib Rapture and up you go. Right? Maybe you think you are MC hammer (Can’t Touch This) and you’re untouchable after Grace? Not what the bible teaches at all. OSAS is a complete lie from Satan. You all fell for it.
"It's not fair!!!!! Grace isn't fair!!! REEEEEeeeeeeeeeee!
So in other words, we answered your questions, and you’re complaining that because it’s not the answer you wanted, we didn’t answer your question.
It’s not the same thing, Phil. In fact, I would call it a blatant falsehood.
I wonder, do you apply the consequences of unrepentant willful sin to yourself too?
Wait... wait wait wait.
Seriously?
Haha... BAHAHAHAHAHA!
So THAT’S what this is about? You’re STILL ranting about none of us falling into that idiotic Saturday worship delusion? And you just spent WEEKS flailing around about OSAS because you really wanted to whine about THAT!?
I should have known!
PFFHAHAHAHA!
-—>Loss of heavenly rewards
That’s a penalty? How’s that even possible. Imardmd1 stated the following in post 1271: “They Both impute Their Righteousness to me and all my saved Brothers and Sisters , of whom the Godhead Jehovah Elohim, the Triune God, is the Ultimate Judge that have already completed Their judging of us.” As you clearly state, if loss of heavenly rewards is a penalty for a life of sin AFTER grace, HOW CAN THAT BE IF YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN JUDGED AT GRACE? Youuuuuuuuuuuuuu are not held accountable for any sin after grace, right? Youuuuuuuuuuuuuuu have already been judged, right? Youuuuuuuuuuuuuuu are spotless forever more, RIGHT?
So, tell me again how one could lose their heavenly rewards if they have already been judged (have already completed their judging of us)? How’s that even possible, hmmmm?
Nope, just making sure you don’t forget. I’ll still bring it up every once and awhile. Not keeping the 4th commandment, the one that specifically says “REMEMBER” is lawlessness (might I even say in your case, willful?)
Just an aside.
Today is Saturday, the Sabbath one is supposed to observe, according to some.
Funny who you find posting on Saturdays on the RF, isn’t it?
Don’t care, Phil. We answered your question and YOU kept repeating we didn’t while at the same time ranting about unrepentant sin.
Why should I bother engaging with such blatant hypocrisy?
Because it’s fun, mostly.
Hypocrite, hypocrite, hypocrite!
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