Apocalypse? Not.

Of course details are important but so is the context. As I told unlearner, “Some things are plainly understood, other things are more difficult. You’re trying to use things that are difficult to understand to deny those things that are more plainly understood.”

I’m a lawyer and you read the law similarly to reading the Bible, which is the Law of Liberty (James 1:25). If part of a statute or passage is difficult to understand or seems ambiguous, you use the context to help you understand the intent of the author (the Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible). So context is king and generally helps resolve questions about a particular part of a statute or scriptural passage.

But you seem to want to continue to strive and strive doubling down on your confusion about a particular passage ignoring the context and the more plainly understood things in that context.

There are lots of ways to resolve your issues but first you’ve got to let go of your flesh trying to run things including interpreting and applying God’s Word. The flesh “lusts against the Spirit” (Gal. 5:17), the author of the Bible, and the carnal (fleshly) mind is the enemy of God (Rom. 8:7).

One way of telling that your flesh is running things here is the continuing debate apparently on this very subject with your family of origin. Our families of origin are the very wellspring of our flesh. We have to walk away from those old family debates that are almost always born of the flesh.

We all have had problems with the flesh running things because that’s basically how we grew up. But we all can and must conquer the tyranny of the flesh by grace through the Spirit (Romans 8:1-14).

I have had the same problems but I had to be willing to back off, let go, and erase the blackboard of my own pet doctrines and strivings. And when it was HIS time, GOD would begin to write on my heart very quietly and peaceably. You need to do this same IMO.

The content of Matthew 24 is mostly about the Tribulation. It is always possible for the things in the chapter to be in order. I think the order of events is the rapture, then the seven year tribulation followed by the second coming of Christ. The rapture and the second coming of Christ are not the same event. Calling the rapture part one of the second coming is does not work since Christ does not come down at the rapture. We go up to meet him in the air.

The question from Matthew 24:3 What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The “abomination of desolation” takes place in the seven-year tribulation. In verses 16-20, Israel is told to flee because they missed the opportunity to escape the in the rapture because of unbelief. The second coming would come after the tribulation.

I see two possible interpretations of verses 40 and 41, the rapture or the second coming of Christ. I cannot eliminate the second coming interpretation by using your arguments about context.

Matt 24 is not chronological whereas Revelation is. Matt 24 is not chronological because Jesus is talking to the Jews who's main concern will be the events after the rapture because so many of them will not be saved when Jesus comes for his saints.

After describing the horrific events of Daniel's 70th week - the 7-year tribulation - (Matt 24:4-35), he then warns those Jews who will listen about being ready for the rapture so they won't have to go trough the tribulation (Matt. 24:36-44).

The rapture and the second coming of Christ are not the same event.

That's right. They are the first part and the second part of Jesus second coming.

Calling the rapture part one of the second coming is does not work since Christ does not come down at the rapture.

Christ certainly comes down from Heaven in the rapture - coming for his own. In the first part of his second coming, he comes FOR his saints. (He just doesn't touch down on the earth.) What does scripture call it?

COMING of the Son of man (Matt. 24:37, 39); watch therefore for you do not know what hour your Lord COMES (v.42); and again, therefore be ready for in an hour you don't think so, the Son of Man COMES

That's the rapture Baby - nobody except the Father knows the day or the hour, but anyone paying attention will know the EXACT time of the second part of his second coming WITH his saints (the end of Daniel's seventieth week, Armageddon, and the establishment of his rule on earth).

Compare scripture with scripture. Let scripture (not the flesh) interpret scripture. What does 1 Thessalonians say?

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the COMING of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Thess. 4:15-17.

That is an exact, detailed description of the first part of the Lord's second coming - the "great catching up" AKA the "rapture".

Erase your blackboard my FRiend and let the Lord write it out for you - he knows a heck of a lot more about this stuff that you or anyone else does.

Matt 24 is not chronological whereas Revelation is. Matt 24 is not chronological.

If your interpretation is right then Matthew 24 is not in chronological order. We do not know the day or the hour of the rapture or the second coming either.

I don’t think Revelation is in chronological order. “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished.” After the seventh trumpet, it jumps back. “Thou must prophesy again.”

I can see more than one possibility in many cases. I think it is possible that “ the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ” (Rev. 11:15) is the second coming.

A few thoughts, not for debate, more for your consideration, as you hopefully move away from fleshly strife and more towards the peace of the Spirit in learning HIS word as you will be blessed in doing so.

Jesus, the author and finisher of Revelation stated that the book was a timeline when he said,

Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter

Rev. 1:19.

So the book is introduced as a timeline (chronological) - past, present, and future.

When he wrote he book, John had seen a revelation of Jesus (Chapt. 1) - past.

When he wrote the book, John was in the "church age" (Chapt. 2-3) - present.

The "rapture", Daniel's 70th week, and Jesus' millennial reign and beyond were all "the things which shall be hereafter" (Chapt. 4-22) - future.

Chapt. 4 opens with a startling event:

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew you things which must be hereafter.

Rev 4:1

Is this not the rapture where "the trump will sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (1 Cor. 15:52)? Notice before Rev 4:1 the church was on the earth, but after this verse the church is only seen in Heaven.

Chapt 6 begins Daniels' 70th week - exactly seven years. By careful and prayerful reading of Matt. 24:4-35, you can map and lay that portion of Matthew, which IS chronological, over Revelation Chapt. 6-19, beginning with Jesus first words in Matt,

Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matt. 24:4-5.

Overlayed with the first thing seen in Revelation Chapt. 6,

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Rev. 6:2

Astonishingly, almost as a fulfilment of this prophecy, many today erroneously think that the guy on the white horse ("white horse" - he's a good guy, right?) is Christ when in fact he is the deceiver Jesus warned about.

Much more, but that's a good start. I hope to write a book someday about all of this that I hope will be informative, edifying, extortive, comforting, and hopefully enjoyable as we see the day fast approaching.

I agree with your last post mostly. You probably should not wait very long to write that book. In my discussions with relatives I was told that if I did not worship on the sabbath I would lose my salvation. At the time I did not know much about the Bible and I could not argue doctrine. It was unsettling to me but it drove me into scripture. I didn’t want to be wrong on the subject. I have found that I learn more from debate with people I disagree with than those with whom i agree.

I have studied Revelation a lot for years. In 1975 I memorized it. I have more questions today than when I started. Here is something for you to ponder. I think there is two parallel prophecies in Revelation. “A book written within and on the backside.” Thou must prophesy again.”

If there are two, they would follow the rule of 1 Corinthians 15:46, first natural then spiritual. I think the first one ends at Revelation 11:18 with the destruction of those who destroy the earth. The second starts with “The temple of God was opened in heaven,” verse 19.

The rapture is Rev 4:1 and Rev 14:16. Also the 144,000 are in both. How far back does Rev 11:19 go. Is it possible that Rev 12-14 happen before the rapture? Is Satan cast to the earth before the tribulation?

Just something for you to think about. We may have a date that is associated with the sign of Rev 12:1-2. I don’t know what it means but I’ m watching. Thing are really quiet in Israel.

Again, start by erasing the blackboard of fleshly prejudice and pet doctrines and let the peace of God rule and write on your heart.

Then context. Jesus showed that the vison he gave John was sequential - past, present, and future.

Those things will help you not get off the track when pondering (hopefully waiting on the Lord) about the more difficult portions of the book. Do the same when pondering the New Covenant of grace (Hebrews 8:8-13, 10:16-17) about which your family of origin and many other Christians who are still under the law need to learn.

BTW, Revelation Chapt 14 is during the 3 1/2-year midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week AKA the 7-year tribulation and is a fascinating view of two great “harvests”. To understand the first “harvest” (Rev 14:13-16), you again need to read the context of this event which begins in Chapt 13, with the beast, his mark, God’s warning to not take the mark, and the resulting bloodbath from the Islamic beheading (”sharp sickle”) of those (mainly Jews (the “144,000”)) who refuse to take the mark and are willing to die instead.

God through scripture says this is really Jesus, Son of Man, harvesting his own out of the earth with a “sharp sickle” (Chat. 14:14). Even though they are killed (nobody except Israel’s remnant survives Daniel’s 70th Week), they end up in Heaven and are spared the even more horrific last 3 1/2 years of horror and terror to come. God sees their choice of death rather than submission to Satan as a great victory (”victory over the beast”) to be celebrated in Heaven (Rev. 15:2-4).

Ponder what I say and let the Lord’s peace be the umpire.

God bless.

Again, start by erasing the blackboard of fleshly prejudice and pet doctrines and let the peace of God rule and write on your heart.

If you support your arguments with scripture, I will decide if I accept the based on scripture. I don’t know what it means to erase the blackboard.

God through scripture says this is really Jesus, Son of Man, harvesting his own out of the earth with a “sharp sickle” (Chat. 14:14). Even though they are killed (nobody except Israel’s remnant survives Daniel’s 70th Week)

I don’t see a harvest in the middle of the tribulation. The harvest is at the beginning the judgment is at the end. When Christ returns with his armies the beast and kings of the earth and their armies will oppose him (Rev 19:19). I think it is absurd to say that Christ will kill his own people with a sickle.

erase the blackboard

The "blackboard" of our minds and hearts. All I know is the Lord gave me this picture of erasing my prejudices and own agenda so he could write on HIS views of HIS Word instead of what I wanted it to be. There was no room for his stuff as long as it was crowded with my stuff. It has helped me a lot.

I think it is absurd to say that Christ will kill his own people with a sickle.

But I never said that did I? I said the Islamocrazies will behead all the Christians (who at this point are mainly the Jews) who will choose martyrdom rather than take the mark of the beast. But Christ allows his own who he loves to be killed, as it is written, "others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection" (Heb 11:35). Not always easy to understand why. And where will these martyrs of Christ go? To Heaven of course (Chapt. 15).

Rev 14:13-16 is meant to be a great comfort for these showing that these are blessed, Jesus is in control even when his own are killed, and they are received into Heaven as victors over Satan and his beast.

This is not the rapture of course - the declaration in Heaven in the next chapter after these have been killed is that they are those who have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" (Chapt. 15:2). There is no mention of that among the church in Heaven in Chapt. 4-5, nor could there be since the beast is not yet even revealed until after the rapture (2 Thess. 2:6).

Again, consider what I say and the Lord give you understanding in all things. Don't just take mine or anyone else's word for it. Wait on the Lord for his impartation of understanding.

God bless.

This is not the rapture of course

I have not eliminated that possibility. There are hundreds of scriptures that have to do with the end times. We should expect that since we are dealing with the word of God that they fit together perfectly. I don’t know how these things will happen but lets suppose that the sign of Revelation 12:1-2 did happen in 2017. Could that mean that Rev. 12 has begun? What did the angel mean when he said to John “thou must prophesy again”?

There are two different periods of three and a half years in Rev. 12. At the end of the first three and a half years, rockets were launched into Israel for a short time then it was quiet until now. I will say, to watch Israel to help understand end times.

There are also two different three and a half year periods in Rev. 11 which may not be the same ones as in chapter 12. Add one more three and a half year period in chapter 13. If they are consecutive you wind up with a possible seventeen and a half years for the events of Revelation 4-19. I have studied the numerical structure of scripture for many years and I do not like the “seventeen and half.” It opens a can of worms for me. 14 or 21 would be a better fit but the time to the administer the vaccine may indicate that the beast will need the 42 months the accomplish the mark of the beast especially if chapter 13 comes before the rapture. It was given to him to make war with the saints. After the rapture there will be no saints at first.

When you think about it, there are a lot of things that happen in a short time. Things take time. The fifth and sixth trumpet will take a year and a half if they are consecutive and not overlapping. Note that the plagues in Egypt were not overlapping.

A few questions I have for you, three times in Revelation and once in the Psalms it mentions that Christ will rule with a “rod of iron.” When does that happen? Will he be ruling over the flesh? Except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved.

What did the angel mean when he said to John “thou must prophesy again”? (Rev. 10:11).

Just what it says. John's writing down the prophesy that Jesus is giving him as Jesus told him to do (Rev. 1:19). ("Many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings" have read this incredible prophesy over the 2000 years since it was written.)

Why does Jesus say this to him at this point in the prophesy? Not sure but we know we are in the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week and as Daniel tells us, the 3 1/2-year midpoint is very important (Dan. 9:27). Daniel has just seen half the world killed in 3 1/2 years and he's probably exhausted, maybe hoping that's all. Jesus is probably strengthening him because he's telling him there's more but Jesus always provides the strength to do his will.

Chapter 11 simply tells us that for the last 3 1/2 years (v. 3) the two witnesses have been prophesying in Jerusalem but the beast is finally able to kill them (v.7).

Christ will rule with a “rod of iron.” When does that happen? Will he be ruling over the flesh?

During his 1000-year rule on the earth (Chapt. 20), he will be ruling over the remnant of Israel and their descendants, the only ones left in the flesh and in the world after the slaughter of Armageddon. He's not going to put up with any s..t. (Mainly political s..t like we're seeing today from corrupt career politicians.) What a day that will be.

Except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved.

At the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week, when the deceiver pulls off his mask and declares himself to be God (Dan. 9:27; 2 Thess. 2:4), the remnant of Israel, the ones that paid attention to Jesus' warning (Matt. 24:15-20) flee to the mountains where the beast miraculously cannot get at them (Rev. 12:6,14). I believe this will be Petra in Jordan (Edom) where the beast cannot get to them (Daniel 11:41). I believe they will suffer in this place which has enough caves for the millions+ who will be there. There will be water and food there, but probably not much. These, the remnant of Israel, are the flesh that if God didn't shorten the length of days, they probably would all die.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.