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A Christmas REALITY - Mary Needed a Savior!
IFB ^ | 12/17/21

Posted on 12/17/2021 7:31:59 AM PST by The Ignorant Fisherman

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To: MurphsLaw

You have your belief that the Catholic Church hasn’t taken its eyes off of Jesus.

I absolutely believe otherwise. I grew up in a place that was around 80% Catholic. I’ve known a great many Catholics closely, including some in my family. I’ve only met a couple who know which end is up on the Bible (I’m using an idiom to make a point, but it’s not exaggerating by much), and as a consequence, they know very little about Jesus and His story. They especially don’t know Him personally. Personal knowing is the truth Jesus revealed, the things He taught and said, His personality, and His actions. Plenty know the Rosary and highlights from the Catechism, but that’s it. So there’s a tremendous void in their knowledge of the Lord that gets filled by other things.


101 posted on 12/22/2021 10:44:26 AM PST by Faith Presses On (Willing to die for Christ, if it's His will--politics should prepare people for the Gospel)
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To: lasereye
Soory for my delay on your reply...
I see 2 errors in your response. One concerns the structure of it - the other is just plain incorrect.
Just because the formulation of an idea as doctrine takes years to develop, does not mean the idea does not exist in earlier or original form.
A simple Google search easily challenges your assertion on what some, yes-not all - of the Church Fathers believed:

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me {ante A.D. 235). 

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1 {A.D. 244). 

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 {A.D. 370). 

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin 71:216 {ante AD 373). 

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22, 30 {A.D. 388). 

Not that this will suffice as proof you demand, but it does in fact show this idea of an IC - along with OT Ark of the Covenant typology of Mary- was in the minds even before the Bible was set to a Canon.
If your standard for acceptance than is UNANIMOUS consent of the Faith- I would say very little can be accepted of the Christian faith considering the now multitude of Gospels.
If your standard is a deadline set in time- than the question always remains who sets that deadline when Christian doctrine can no longer develop. In the case of the IC, I would assume what modern science has discovered about cellular DNA, fertility- even insemination- could not be considered in understanding this miraculous occurrence of the flesh. We are always to be relegated then to only believing in some sort of miracle...but certainly not any other ideal or dimension of that miracle.. as our egos now know the mind of God and his intentions, as captured on the pages on ancient text.

To your point about a singular focus regarding a singular topic - say the IC - if I were an Orthodox- I can somewhat agree with you and hold to that questionable position as that - as it pertains to MY Orthodox faith perspective.

However, if my perspective is one of the many Protestant ideals floating around, outside of the Orthodox doctrine- (which is what I was addressing)...well no way in Hades can they singularly cherry pick for acceptance of an Orthodox position-to support there Protestant claim- while holding other Orthodox doctrine- even that which is aligned with the Catholic- as false and rejectable.
That's more commonly known as a Double-Standard which I will always try to point out.

Reject as you wish, but just realize just how it is you are rejecting it.
102 posted on 12/22/2021 9:02:45 PM PST by MurphsLaw ("Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel")
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To: lasereye
Soory for my delay on your reply...
I see 2 errors in your response. One concerns the structure of it - the other is just plain incorrect.
Just because the formulation of an idea as doctrine takes years to develop, does not mean the idea does not exist in earlier or original form.
A simple Google search easily challenges your assertion on what some, yes-not all - of the Church Fathers believed:

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me {ante A.D. 235). 

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1 {A.D. 244). 

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 {A.D. 370). 

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin 71:216 {ante AD 373). 

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22, 30 {A.D. 388). 

Not that this will suffice as proof you demand, but it does in fact show this idea of an IC - along with OT Ark of the Covenant typology of Mary- was in the minds even before the Bible was set to a Canon.
If your standard for acceptance than is UNANIMOUS consent of the Faith- I would say very little can be accepted of the Christian faith considering the now multitude of Gospels.
If your standard is a deadline set in time- than the question always remains who sets that deadline when Christian doctrine can no longer develop. In the case of the IC, I would assume what modern science has discovered about cellular DNA, fertility- even insemination- could not be considered in understanding this miraculous occurrence of the flesh. We are always to be relegated then to only believing in some sort of miracle...but certainly not any other ideal or dimension of that miracle.. as our egos now know the mind of God and his intentions, as captured on the pages on ancient text.

To your point about a singular focus regarding a singular topic - say the IC - if I were an Orthodox- I can somewhat agree with you and hold to that questionable position as that - as it pertains to MY Orthodox faith perspective.

However, if my perspective is one of the many Protestant ideals floating around, outside of the Orthodox doctrine- (which is what I was addressing)...well no way in Hades can they singularly cherry pick for acceptance of an Orthodox position-to support there Protestant claim- while holding other Orthodox doctrine- even that which is aligned with the Catholic- as false and rejectable.
That's more commonly known as a Double-Standard which I will always try to point out.

Reject as you wish, but just realize just how it is you are rejecting it.
103 posted on 12/22/2021 9:04:48 PM PST by MurphsLaw ("Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel")
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To: Faith Presses On
Are you saying the Church has taken its eyes off Jesus- or rank and file Catholics have?
The Church is a global Church..are you speaking specifically of America- or the rest of the world? While the Church is dying in Ireland- it is thriving in places like Poland, or even Africa..

I still can't agree on the fact the Church as a whole is less focused on Christ- but if you bring in the laity- yes for sure... The laity have grown indifferent and lazy. But all that is slowly changing and the re-energized educational influence within the Church has been largely due to Protestant conversion into the Church.
Catholic Answers for instance, exists for the sole purpose of teaching the faith to the pew sitters, is staffed by former Protestants who are scripturally well versed and bring that Biblical spark to those seeking.. The growth in Apologetics is a good indicator of what gas begun to take root in the Faith...
Adoration of Christ is more available as well now, and the Mass liturgies have never lost Christ as the central being of the faith.
You would surprised to learn of the growth in apostolates within the Church...
The current Pope has not made it easy, but I dont share that the situation in the Global Church is getting worse... here and there no doubt.

Those who try to kill Christ eventually learn new xannot be killed and will pop up somewhere else.
if history has taught us nothing, it at least has taught us this.
104 posted on 12/22/2021 10:04:22 PM PST by MurphsLaw ("Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel")
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