The Principal Errors of Vatican II

Catholic Apologetics ^ | unknown | Catholic Apologetics

[ebb tide]

Ping

[Oystir]

St. Pope John XXIII, St Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul 1, St John Paul II, Pope Benedict all got it wrong, eh?

[amihow]

It is a scandal for people to condemn the documents of V2 at the same time fail to disclose the way the Truth of the Catholic faith grows without contradiction.

The concept of the Development of Doctrine is well known in the Church, but I do not see it spoken of. Simply put Doctrine can grow and often does, with new insights which do not contradict prior authentic teachings.

Briefly, without denying that the whole truth lies in the Catholic Church, it is obvious that some of those truths are also found in other Churches.

Therefore, many non Catholics, sincerely seeking the whole truth possess some of the truths. With a new application of God’s already known mercy and justice, it was logical to teach that people who sincerely seek the whole truth, but as yet, through no fault of their own, only possess some hints of truths can be saved.

Please do not be silent about these developments and call them errors. They are not errors.

[MurphsLaw]

You Americans have a saying don't you...

Love it - or Leave it ?

[piusv]

So I take it that you didn’t read any of it because it explains clear contradictions.

[amihow]

I have read this stuff for years. It is a scandal. You do not seem to differentiate between development and contradiction.
Your reams of propaganda will never overturn the truths of V2. Never! If in a spirit of love and service, you put your efforts toward picking off the erroneous applications of V2, I personally would help you.

[piusv]

Oh, I most certainly do differentiate between development and contradiction...and the religion of Vatican II is NOT CATHOLIC. Those that continue to say otherwise are the scandal.

[Oystir]

See post 3

[MurphsLaw]

Guadium:
"This is why the first and greatest commandment is love of God and of neighbor."

Hold on a second. The first and greatest commandment is not love of God and of neighbor. The first and greatest commandment is love of God.

ebb, ebb, ebb... you picked on the wrong verse buddy....lol

Lets go to the tape:

+++ Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these TWO commandments DEPENDETH THE WHOLE law and the prophets.

So is it semantics keeping you from God? OR does your religious sect Believe that you can get to Heaven by just obeying ONE of those Commandments - Love God- sorry neighbor??
OR do you then think the Church is saying just love your neighbor- you don't need to love God? What a hoot that sermon would be...
In Christianity, those commandments are alike, and inseparably the whole - in these verses you are trying to distort for your own pleasure !!!
Work of the devil ebb !!! The diabulous !!!

So tell me again:::

HOW do the Vatican 2 documents keep YOU from Loving God with all YOUR heart, etc.?
HOW do the Vatican 2 documents keep YOU from willing the best for YOUR neighbor?
HOW do the Vatican 2 documents keep YOU from becoming the best Catholic version of YOURSELF you know you should be?

[piusv]

So, all the popes prior to Vatican II....got it wrong?

[piusv]

No one is arguing that the second commandment is not important. However, the first and greatest commandment is LOVE OF GOD. NOT LOVE OF NEIGHBOR. Vatican II puts them on the same footing.

[MurphsLaw]

No one is arguing that the second commandment is not important. However, the first and greatest commandment is LOVE OF GOD. NOT LOVE OF NEIGHBOR. Vatican II puts them on the same footing.

Look... The Catholic faith embraces Christianity in its fullness embodiment. Yes if you want to pick a verse here and there- and say - This is it ! You are missing a much bigger picture- and not living Catholicism...but more of Martin Luther's legalistic singularities.
The beauty and richness of the Faith is lost in this dissecting manner which the antagonist here employs exhaustingly. But that's not what God wants. Heck- He coulda stopped with the greatest commandment then- just one- if Greatness was his priority. The FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH in following Christ requires more than one liners...

And that is exactly what you find unveiled richly, deeply and textured in the documents of Vatican 2... Is every sentence soul capturing hit?...of course not...but we need to put away the microscope and reach for the stethoscope.. And once you do.. you'll see it- but not until then..
And what do you really see in this one line the commenter proposes his "gotcha" game? Where some see heresy they are blind to the scriptural beauty... Again, its all about fullness - the WHOLE... not semantical grammar, to be translated as desired.. in doing so the antagonist is missing the totality of what the Lord has shown us as the proper essence of love as he wants.
It means what the New Covenant involves, beyond virtue, above all the new commandment, the first and the greatest of the commandments, AND the one that best identifies us as Christ’s disciples: “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you” (Jn 15:12). The New Testament writers were purposeful in showing us the heart of Christ's message- That the love of neighbor was inseparably core to the Sacred Heart...and way beyond a singularly "importance."
Integral to the Christian moral message and throughout New testament scripture is the essential requirement of love for one’s neighbour:- as hard as that is for us to accomplish.
“The one who loves his neighbour has fulfilled the whole law… therefore love of neighbour is the fulfilling of the law” (Rom 13:8, 10). These are the words of Saint Paul, for whom the commandment of love not only sums up the law but constitutes its very heart and purpose: “For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, ‘you shall love your neighbour as yourself’” (Gal 5:14). St. Paul taught that the Christian life is a journey of growth in love: “May the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all” (1 Th 3:12). St. James encourages as well-- to fulfil “the royal law according to the Scripture: You shall love your neighbour as yourself” (2:8), in order not to fall short of any commandment.

You can lead a horse to water... but all they see is Vat 2 or now Pope Francis in the way. Its a palpable excuse in thes scandalous times... but God is not fooled...

[NTHockey]

An be summarized in one sentence.

Vatican II was heresy.

[piusv]

That’s just it: it isn’t just a verse/teaching here or there. To continue to be blind to that fact is not living true Catholicism.

But, like you said, you can lead a horse to water.....

[ebb tide]

St. Pope John XXIII, St Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul 1, St John Paul II, Pope Benedict all got it wrong, eh?

Why not? They were wrong about the U.N also, eh:

What is perhaps more remarkable is the level of trust and praise successive Popes have heaped upon the organisation. Thus, in his encyclical Pacem in Terris, John XXIII opines:

It is therefore Our earnest wish that the United Nations Organization may be able progressively to adapt its structure and methods of operation to the magnitude and nobility of its tasks. May the day be not long delayed when every human being can find in this organization an effective safeguard of his personal rights; those rights, that is, which derive directly from his dignity as a human person, and which are therefore universal, inviolable and inalienable.

On October 4, 1965, Paul VI addressed the General Assembly, saying, among other congratulatory things:

Permit us to say that we have a message, and a happy one, to hand over to each one of you. Our message is meant to be first of all a solemn moral ratification of this lofty Institution, and it comes from our experience of history. It is as an ‘expert on humanity’ that we bring this Organization the support and approval of our recent predecessors, that of the Catholic hierarchy, and our own, convinced as we are that this Organization represents the obligatory path of modern civilization and world peace.

On October 2, 1979, John Paul II chimed in at the same venue:

Besides attaching great importance to its collaboration with the United Nations Organization, the Apostolic See has always, since the foundation of your Organization, expressed its esteem and its agreement with the historic significance of this supreme forum for the international life of humanity today.

Not only did Benedict XVI repeat his predecessors’ praise at similar visits, he insisted in his 2009 encyclical Caritas in Veritate, that

In the face of the unrelenting growth of global interdependence, there is a strongly felt need, even in the midst of a global recession, for a reform of the United Nations Organization, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth.

The reason for this Pontifical enthusiasm for what to many of us appears as a great source of evil is in my humble opinion, a yearning for Christendom – conscious or otherwise. Christendom is a word we hear tossed around quite a bit. But what exactly was or is it? Does it bear any resemblance to the UN or any other body around to-day? Does it even exist anymore?

What is Christendom?

[ebb tide]

You poor soul, Murph. You twist scripture, like Bergoglio does, to fit your departures from the faith.

Arguing the Bible can be misinterpreted for nefarious means by throwing out the accusation of "semantics" is pathetic.

Take the murderous muslims for instance, Nostra Aetate falsely states, "They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God."

The muslims falsely think they "adore the one God". Yet the muslims do not love their neighbors as themselves; ergo they do not worship a "true God"; they are incapable of doing so in their false religion. They are not honoring the "greatest and first Commandment; despite what the heretical council claims.

[ebb tide]

HOW do the Vatican 2 documents keep YOU from Loving God with all YOUR heart, etc.?
HOW do the Vatican 2 documents keep YOU from willing the best for YOUR neighbor?
HOW do the Vatican 2 documents keep YOU from becoming the best Catholic version of YOURSELF you know you should be?

Already answered the first time. Stop being childish; this is now the third time you have asked the same rhetorical questions. Please grow up.

[AceMineral]

How exactly is The State supposed to support The Church without infringing on The Church?

[MurphsLaw]

That’s just it: it isn’t just a verse/teaching here or there.

You are correct... there are many many verses and sentences that are held up as incorrectness against the true faith.
The inconvenient truth is that 60 years ago the Church saw a world quite different from ours.
And part of that truth is the undeniable fact that the voting of the Bishops of the Church was basically unanimous on about 10 of the documents. Average Voting tally for those was about 2250-7.The other documents saw more nays...the 5 documents from 35 no's to 88...(against 2200 avg. Yays)
Fun fact: The the most hotly contested document passing with a vote of 1960- 164. And was that hotly contested document??
The Decree on MEDIA and Sovial Communication.
IRONY ALERT: The modernist council saw its most opposition to the use of MODERN MEDIA !!
as described:

The importance of press, film, radio and television for the evangelization of the world is officially recognized. Guidelines should be issued for their proper use. Evaluation of secular production should be raised to a higher level. The responsibility of lay people is emphasized; they will be more heavily counted upon in staffing the Church's media reviewing organization.

Truly revolutionary stuff there !
There was no opposition on how the Council handled abortion, normalization of homosexuality, gay marriage, Transgenderism, homosexual Priests or the clergy sex abuse scandal.
Maybe overlooked, but convenient fortoday as the Council serves to be blamed for all of the societal disintegration that has occurred. Go figure.

All To continue to be blind to that fact is not living true Catholicism

If those Church leaders, running the Church 60 years ago..(most ordained in the 1920s,30s and 40s - Traditional Bishops way before Vat 2 happened) if these guys in basically unanimous fashion didnt know what the hell THEY were doing back then since they were living it- what the heck is "True" Catholicism anyways...

IF they got it wrong then- Then they HAD IT WRONG then..

Turn back the clock to that? Can anyone be do clueless as to not know the emerging rot in the 1950s Catholic Church?