[amihow]

I attended TLM decades ago. I choose not to now for various reasons, but begrudge no one the right to attend themselves.

I do get touchy having to defend V2v, JP2 and Paul6th and John 23rd however to many TLM people.

I recognize the abuses in the Novus Ordo and the TLM. I do not like them, but the valid Eucharist and Scripture as prescribed are the most important.

V2 was validly called, implemented and signed by Pope. We all need to know it and fight abuses and quit thinking what Mass we go to is the most important way to be Catholic.

[MurphsLaw]

I'm the same way... V2 is the scapegoat for a cultural world that has gone diabolically evil. V2 didn't cause the post-war moral decline - and clergy sex abuse scandals pre date V2- Reverence for the Sacraments have declined no doubt, and that IS a symptom of bad liturgy- but it will always come back on the faith of the believer... and the relevance of Faith in their life...
Cant say what the Church would look like today if V2 never happened, if Better- or - Worse...
Yet the societal evil would still be advancing and consuming our humanity- in as fast of a decline.. That we know...

One thing we do know as well - (for better or worse) is that it was BECAUSE OF V2 that we can speak and interact -complain- on such a level within the Church --- to have a voice.
Before the council, Parishioner involvement was a tightly held constituency- and outside that, you did not question... the Pastor/religious were always right.

Maybe we would not have need for a vocal laity if V2 didn't happen - but I don't think so, given the breakdown of society...

The Lord does work in mysterious ways that we cannot guess...

[MasonGal]

I agree with you.

[StAnDeliver]

"I do get touchy having to defend V2v, JP2 and Paul6th and John 23rd however to many TLM people."

St. John Paul was the force that restored the Traditional Mass in 1984:

"The Vatican announced today that Pope John Paul II would allow limited use of the Latin- only Tridentine Mass, which was banned worldwide two decades ago."

Benedict let it flourish. Not a distinction without a difference but it's important to note that (a) the situation before July 15 is due mostly to JPII, and which is why it operated in the clear until Bergoglio's recent illness has forced him to enunciate his bucket list; and (b) Bergoglio knows this and his was a specific attack on the legacy of JPII.

[ebb tide]

I recognize the abuses in the Novus Ordo and the TLM.

Pray tell, what abuses have you observed in the TLM?