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To: daniel1212
You mean Catholic theology since distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed

Are not manifest to *you*, you mean. Because I see them in Acts and Romans and Revelations clear as a bell....but more importantly, the Church Fathers for 1500 years saw them in there as well.

Of course, that's the whole reason you said "wholly inspired" record, right? You were attempting to entirely exclude all the Christian literature that didn't agree with your idea of the NT.

Can't do that. There are enormously precious and valuable historical records of what the early Church believed, from the Didache and Clement all the way through to Constantine and beyond.

Valuable and precious, anyway, to those who aren't afraid of them, and who don't hold to the heresies they flatly condemn.

18 posted on 06/19/2021 3:07:17 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud
"Are not manifest to *you*, you mean. Because I see them in Acts and Romans and Revelations clear as a bell.... "

No, Catholic distinctives are nowhere in Acts and Romans and Revelations, much less clear as a bell, and insisting one can see them there would be an example of one seeing what they want but can only wish were there. That you appeal to the uninspired writings of post-apostolic men testifies to this.

"but more importantly, the Church Fathers for 1500 years saw them in there as well."

"More importantly?!" Seriously, the uninspired writings of men - which actually attest to the progressive accretion of traditions of men - are more important than only the only wholly inspired-of-God and substantive record of what the NT church believed?

"Of course, that's the whole reason you said "wholly inspired" record, right? You were attempting to entirely exclude all the Christian literature that didn't agree with your idea of the NT."

No, not exclude, but as subject to testing by that which is wholly God- inspired, as was even the veracity of even the very apostles who, unlike your writings and popes and councils, could speak and write as wholly God-inspired.

" Can't do that. There are enormously precious and valuable historical records of what the early Church believed, from the Didache and Clement all the way through to Constantine and beyond. Valuable and precious, anyway, to those who aren't afraid of them, and who don't hold to the heresies they flatly condemn. "

Actually rather than being afraid of them they both can reprove Rome - thus "she judges them more than she is judged by them" (Catholic Encyclopedia: “Tradition and Living Magisterium”) - as well as provide testimony of the accretion of her errors.

19 posted on 06/19/2021 4:43:04 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save + be baptized + follow Him!)
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To: Claud

You mean THESE church fathers?

Clement of Rome: “We also, being called through God’s will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith” (Epistle to Corinthians).

Ignatius: “His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified (Epistle to Philadelphians). Note: “muniments” are title deeds, documents giving evidence of legal ownership of something.

Polycarp: “I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

Justin Martyr: “No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer...are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account (Dialogue with Trypho). “God gave his own Son the ransom for us...for what, save his righteousness, could cover our sins. In whom was it possible that we, transgressors and ungodly as we were, could be justified, save in the Son of God alone? ...O unexpected benefit, that the transgression of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors” (Letter to Diognetus).

Ireneus: “Through the obedience of one man who first was born from the Virgin, many should be justified and receive salvation.”

Cyprian: “If Abraham believed in God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, then each one, who believes in God and lives by faith, is found to be a righteous person.”

Athanasius: “Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham.”

Basil: “This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ.”

Ambrose: “Without the works of the law, to an ungodly man, that is to say, a Gentile, believing in Christ, his “faith is imputed for righteousness” as also it was to Abraham.”

Origen: “Through faith, without the works of the law, the dying thief was justified, because...the Lord inquired not what he had previously wrought, nor yet waited for his performance of some work after he should have believe; but...he took him unto himself for a companion, justified through his confession alone.”

Jerome: “When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not.”

Chrysostom: “What then did God do? He made (says Paul) a righteous Person (Christ) to be a sinner, in order that he might make sinners righteous... it is the righteousness of God, when we are justified, not by works...but by grace, where all sin is made to vanish away.”

Chrysostom: “Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that hewho adhered to Faith alone, is blessed.”

Augustine: “Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received.”

Augustine: “Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,—in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace.”

Anselm: “Do you believe that you cannot be saved but by the death of Christ? Go, then, and ...put all your confidence in this death alone. If God shall say to you, “You are a sinner”, say to him, “I place the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between me and my sin.””

Bernard of Clairvaux: “Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who “justified the ungodly”; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God.”


20 posted on 06/19/2021 1:13:46 PM PDT by Luircin
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