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To: daniel1212
Your not describing another world...just periods of time within a world...

Christ clearly indicates another world- and not an instantaneous world... where by we are cleansed of sin... as in this world..

25 Descriptive and Clear Bible Passages About Purgatory Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all saw descriptions of purgatory in the bible.
Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.
This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.
Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)
St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.
Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)
St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.
Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.
St. Francis de Sales commented:
It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory. (The Catholic Controversy translated by Henry B. Mackey, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1989 [orig. 1596], 373)
Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:
[B]ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)
Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)
Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)
Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book...

An aside ther is an abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:
These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

160 posted on 04/27/2021 9:59:19 PM PDT by MurphsLaw (“IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, - And the Word was made FLESH ”)
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To: MurphsLaw; daniel1212; metmom; boatbums; caww; SouthernClaire; imardmd1; Mom MD
How did Jesus put it on the cross? ... 'Paid in full'. A works based Christianity look-a-like asserting that Jesus did not pay it in full, an adherent has to paid part of the price FOR GRACE!

Of course there is no price we can pay to have the Righteousness of Christ. Before we are Saved or after we are born again. A man cannot reconcile himself to God. ONY God can reconcile a destitute sinner -with no righteousness- to God. GOD has chosen to do that act of Grace for EVERYONE who believes in Whom God sent to reconcile us to Himself.

HOWEVER, once we have had imputed to us (that's the only way we can get righteousness on God's scale) the righteousness of Christ o that GOD's seed ABIDES in us (1 JOhn 3:9), THEN GOD expects our participation in the sanctification process which He, God, desires for His children.

Too often folks flip flop the Justification phase with the sanctification phase. And often these same people will deny there is coming a moment when God will glorify His Justified ones -regardless of how sanctified they have become- and sntch us outta here.

Marantha

161 posted on 04/27/2021 10:15:33 PM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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To: MurphsLaw
"Your not describing another world...just periods of time within a world... Christ clearly indicates another world- and not an instantaneous world... where by we are cleansed of sin... as in this world.."

No, and you are blowing smoke, for rather than any clearly indication of Purgatory,

1. The millennial reign of Christ is in the age to come on this earth after His return to this earth, not an instantaneous new world, but which reign leads to the new earth after the Lord Jesus has subdued all His enemies. Zechariah 14:4; Matthew 19:28; Acts 2:34-35; 1 Corinthians 15:28; Jude 1:14,14' Revelation 2:27; 19:14-20:7-15; 21:1) I can show you more if needed.

2. The word for "world" in the verse (Mt. 12:32) you quoted (aiōn) means age.

3. Catholics believe that Purgatory existed before the time of Christ, that sins that can be forgiven in the next life, and thus it is not an age to come.

4. Since that Christ shall reign on earth with saints over unconverted souls in an age to come is what is clearly taught, then there is not even any warrant for a Purgatory doctrine.

"5 Descriptive and Clear Bible Passages About Purgatory Origen, St. Irenaeus...,"

Yada yada... resorting to the uninspired writings of ancients who adopted false believes is a tacit admission that Purgatory is not actual taught in Scripture. Instead, as with compromised Jews, this was adopted from paganism and was a development, not a doctrine believed in Biblical times by the faithful. Thus leading to such practices as one that,

arose in the 12th century among Ashkenazim of the Rhineland, who kept lists of their dead in Memorbücher and recited the Kaddish to help the dead through the interim period of purification after death. According to the French historian [and prolific author specializing in the Middle Ages] Jacques Le Goff, the conception of purgatory as a physical place dates to the 12th century, the heyday of medieval otherworld-journey narratives and of pilgrims’ tales about St. Patrick’s Purgatory, a cavelike entrance to purgatory on a remote island in northern Ireland. As late as 1220, however, Caesarius of Heisterbach, a Cistercian monk and preacher, thought that purgatory could be in several places at once. With his Purgatorio, in which the “second kingdom” of the afterlife is a seven-story mountain situated at the antipodes to Jerusalem, Dante Alighieri (1265–1321) created a poetic synthesis of theology, Ptolemaic cosmology, and moral psychology depicting the gradual purification of the image and likeness of God in the human soul. (https://www.britannica.com/topic/purgatory-Roman-Catholicism)

Jacques Le Goff also attests,

PRAYERS FOR THE DEAD Christians seem to have acquired the habit of praying for their dead at a very early date. This was an innovation... These practices developed around the beginning of the Christian era. They were a phenomenon of the times, particularly noticeable in Egypt, the great meeting ground for peoples and religions. Traveling in Egypt around 50 s.c., Diodorus of Sicily was struck by the funerary customs: "As soon as the casket containing the corpse is placed on the bark, the survivors call upon the infernal gods and beseech them to admit the soul to the place received for pious men. The crowd adds its own cheers, together with pleas that the deceased be allowed to enjoy eternal life in Hades, in the society of the good."... It then becomes clear that at the time of Judas Maccabeus--around 170 s.c., a surprisingly innovative period—prayer for the dead was not practiced, but that a century later it was practiced by certain Jews. The Birth of Purgatory By Jacques Le Goff. pp. 45,46 , transcribed using http://www.onlineocr.net.

Moreover, while you appeal to tradition, besides there being different beliefs about a purgatory for over a thousand years, the tradition-intensive EOs treject RC Purgatory:

The Orthodox Church opposes the Roman doctrines of universal papal jurisdiction, papal infallibility, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception precisely because they are untraditional." - Orthodox apologist and author Clark Carlton: THE WAY: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church, 1997, p 135.

Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church.. — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076

The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God.

Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory. — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076

"2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29) The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it."

Rather, these were not Biblical Jews, and 2 Maccabees 12 is not teaching RC Purgatory, for,

1. In RC theology, Purgatory is only for the elect, those who are certain to be saved, but need to make further expiation for venial, non-mortal sin and attain the level of purification needed to enter Heaven. However, those in 2 Mac. 12 specifically died because they were card-carrying (amulet) idolators, which is a moral sin, which excludes one from Purgatory. "Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain...they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain" - 2 Maccabees 12:40,42), for whom according to Rome there is no hope.

Thus RCs must resort to special pleading that maybe they repented in their dying moments, or they simply carried these amulets like baseball card, yet these souls died due to idolatry.

As for support of purification after death, 2 Maccabees 12:38-46 does not teach that these souls were experiencing postmortem purification, for the offering that was made for them was in order that they may be in the resurrection (of the just) which those in Purgatory are said to already be assured of, and not that they may escape from purgatory. "And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection: For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead." (2 Maccabees 12:43-44)

Also, as for these Maccabean Jews, a Jewish site tells us that the rededication of the Temple was,

led by Judas Maccabeus, third son of Mattathias the Hasmonean, whose successors established the Hasmonean high priesthood dynasty. But which were not a valid high priesthood due to invalid lineage, (Genesis 49:10) being not of the lineage of David, as the Zadoks were, and their line ended up opening the door to the Roman conquest. Their control ended when Herod eliminated every male in the Hasmonean line. (Though The Herodian Dynasty had Hasmonean blood thru two sons and two daughters. through Mariamne.) Due to the unpopularity of its founders, Hanukkah itself came to be largely ignored within a few decades after its origins. Then when Rome’s crushing power began to be felt in Palestine, the people recognized in Hanukkah a message of hope that new Maccabees would rise and independence would be restored. - The Hasmonean Dynasty | My Jewish Learning

"1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory."

Do you actually read what I posted to you? There is a whole section showing what this premise is simply untenable, esp since it does not occur until the Lord returns. In short:

Wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

"Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight: "

Which uninspired errors further attest to the accretion of doctrines of men, of distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels).

"An aside ther is an abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff: These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. " And which is a prime example of such unScriptural error! For while the Holy Spirit records approx. 200 prayers in Scripture in exampling and teaching how to pray and exhorting the same, there are zero prayers to Heaven anywhere in Scripture addressed to anyone in Heaven but God, except by pagans.

Thus those who vainly attempt to actually support the vain tradition of Prayer to created beings in Heaven from Scripture cannot show:

1. Even one example where anyone prayed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, amid the approx. 200 prayers the Holy Spirit recorded for us in Scripture.

2. Any instruction on prayer to Heaven in which the addressee is anyone God, versus a created being in Heaven.

3. Even one example in which anyone in Heaven but God regularly hear and respond to prayers addressed to them, (elders and angels offering prayers in memorial as a preclude to judgment will not do), versus the Lord Jesus being the only unceasing Heavenly intercessor. (1 Tim. 2:5)

4. One example in which anyone from Heaven but God communicated with those on earth without both being personally present in the same realm.

5. One example in which earthly relations on earth have complete correspondence to those btwn created beings, in contrast to that not being the case.

6. Even one example of a common, necessary, fundamental doctrinal Christian practice for which the Holy Spirit does not provide even one single example, except by pagans in which it is condemned.

7. Even one example in which believers even sought the intercession of Mary on earth.

8. Even one example in which faithful believers kneel before other believers on earth in obeisance in sanctioned.

9. Why Catholics are exempt from the admonition not to think of mortals "above that which is written." (1Co. 4:6)

10. Even one example in which believers kneel before a statue and praise the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power and glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them

Which manner of adulation,as said, would constitute worship in Scripture , yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Give it up, and may God peradventure grant you "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." (2 Timothy 2:25)

186 posted on 04/28/2021 6:36:36 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save + be baptized + follow Him!)
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