Free Republic
Browse · Search
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

EP 3 | Delivered from Future Wrath | (trunc)
Youtube.Com (John Ankerberg channel) ^ | Oct 21, 2016 | John Ankerberg Show

Posted on 10/01/2020 1:25:39 AM PDT by SaveFerris

John Ankerberg with Dr. Ed Hindson, Dr. Ron Rhodes and Dr. Mark Hitchcock.

Full Title is: "EP 3 | Delivered from Future Wrath | The Biblical Case for the Rapture of All Christians"

TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: bible; christ; jesus; prophecy
I truncated the title. I still think Christians need to be watching and expecting His Return (for example, from Revelation 3:3). That is not meant to be a divisive issue, so, FWIW.

Revelation 3:3 King James Version

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

That being said, if one has been warned not to present the preterist or partial-preterist view to me, please do not ping me again (no one has done this lately).

If this thread is not to your liking, please move on to another thread and may the Lord bless you the rest of this week.

1 posted on 10/01/2020 1:25:39 AM PDT by SaveFerris
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: RushIsMyTeddyBear; metmom; CynicalBear; SkyPilot; tuffydoodle; tang-soo; righttackle44; ...

And a clickable Youtube link here too - right-click to open in a new window so you can have FR open too (suggestion)

No doubt there will be scoffers, just as prophesied.

If preterists and partial-preterists wish to exchange that among each other, best of luck.

2 posted on 10/01/2020 1:28:03 AM PDT by SaveFerris (Luke 17:28 ... as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold ......)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Roman_War_Criminal; SkyPilot

I do hope people will take the time to watch the video - it is 28 minutes long (and change).

The only person here I’ve talked to in person was Dr. Ed Hindson. I have enjoyed Dr. Hindson for years on TheKingIsComing.Com broadcast.

3 posted on 10/01/2020 1:52:00 AM PDT by SaveFerris (Luke 17:28 ... as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold ......)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: SaveFerris


4 posted on 10/01/2020 3:13:46 AM PDT by skr (May God confound the enemy)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SaveFerris


5 posted on 10/01/2020 3:24:53 AM PDT by sauropod (I will not comply.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SaveFerris

“I still think Christians need to be watching and expecting His Return”


However, the (Biblical) idea of watching for Christ’s return is antithetical to the (unbiblical) idea of a sudden, signless rapture. That is, the “at any moment” (so-called “imminency”) rapture teaching contradicts the Biblical command to watch.

The false argument in the linked video is that “waiting” for Christ’s return is somehow incompatible with looking for specific prophetic events that must occur before the rapture. This can easily be demonstrated to be false. It is like saying that a child is watching and waiting for her daddy to come home from work, but she is not watching and waiting for the sun to go down or the sound of her father’s car entering the driveway. (This is the same illustration that the video uses.)

The argument goes something along the lines of we are waiting for Jesus not the anti-Christ. The problem here is that waiting entails going through things that are different from the rapture. In other words, of course the anti-Christ arriving is not what we are waiting for, it is one of the things we are waiting through. Big difference. Otherwise, it is not really waiting or enduring anything.

We cannot watch for an event that transpires instantly and is not preceded by signs to tell us that the event is about to happen. (We can wait for His return, but we would not be able watch for it without signs.) We also cannot “see the day approaching” if it is not preceded by signs.

There are specific signs of Christ’s return, and these signs will tell us that His return has become imminent. His return is now certain but not yet imminent. The specific signs Jesus gave us have not happened yet.

The idea that Jesus could come back in the lifetime of any believer (including Paul) is not the same as Him potentially coming back at any moment without any preceding signs.

The video also asserts that Revelation (3:10) describes being delivered from the great tribulation, but this does not necessarily mean being taken out of the world because Christ used the same language in John:

John 17:15 (NKJV)
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep (teresa) them from the evil one.

God can and will “keep” believers during the Great Tribulation, but He may do so without taking us out of this world. Thus, He will keep us THROUGH the Great Tribulation.

6 posted on 10/01/2020 3:46:05 AM PDT by unlearner (Be ready for war.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: unlearner
1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.

The Tribulation if God's judgment on an unbelieving world and to redeem Israel.

We do not qualify in either of those cases and there's ample evidence in Revelation that we are in heaven at our wedding feast and then will return with Christ when He comes back the second time. That army that He comes back with has to have been with Him to return with Him and that can't happen if we're still here on earth.

Nor is it our job to witness during the Tribulation. God has that job for the 144,000 Jewish witnesses from the twelve tribes of Israel.

7 posted on 10/01/2020 5:09:55 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: metmom

“The Tribulation if God’s judgment on an unbelieving world and to redeem Israel.”

Christians experience tribulation but not the wrath of God. The Great Tribulation is not the same thing as the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord.

God also has a different purpose for the nation of Israel and the Church. Supersessionism (or replacement theology) is a false doctrine that asserts that the Church has taken Israel’s place as the definitive people of God. Israel remains God’s earthly people. The Church is Christ’s Heavenly bride. Because these two groups are distinct (yet their memberships overlap) the timeline for God’s plan for both may or may not overlap because these are independent from one another. Paul was accused of promoting a type of replacement theology in his Gospel message, but he makes it as clear as possible that this is not true:

Romans 11:1 & 23 (NKJV)
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin...
And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Paul describes Gentile believers figuratively as a wild olive branch grafted into an olive tree. National Israel has become a branch that did not bear fruit and was broken off. But Paul says God will graft the natural branch back in. But here is the take away: both branches can and will coexist as part of the same olive tree. He has also hints at the time of natural repentance that is yet to occur:

Romans 11:26-27 (NKJV)
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

This is part of the purpose of Daniel’s seventieth week.

Daniel 9:24 (NKJV)
Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

Israel’s national repentance has been prophesied elsewhere.

Zechariah 12:10 (NKJV)
And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

The piercing here took place at Calvary, but the looking and sorrow unto repentance will take place at the return of Christ when every eye will see Him.

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Does Christ coming in the clouds sound familiar? See Matthew 24:30, 26:64, Acts 1:9, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Recall that God appeared to Israel in the cloud that led them from Egypt and through the wilderness. It represents God’s glory.

So, John connects Christ’s return here with the fulfillment of Zechariah’s prophecy. When will Israel’s national repentance occur? The answer is here: when they see Christ coming on the clouds of Heaven. Is this at the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week? No. Is it at the end? No.

It takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation and beginning of the Day of Wrath:

Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV)
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

In the prophetic timeline, when does this occur? Compare the Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:29-30 (NKJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Some will mourn in despair but some (including Israel) will mourn in repentance.

“There’s ample evidence in Revelation that we are in heaven at our wedding feast and then will return with Christ when He comes back the second time.”

True (although the rapture is part of the second coming according to Hebrews 9:28). But WHEN do WE go to be with Christ? Revelation 7 seems to describe the rapture from the Heavenly perspective. This also immediately follows Christ’s appearing at the end of Revelation 6 and the sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation 7.

“Nor is it our job to witness during the Tribulation. God has that job for the 144,000 Jewish witnesses from the twelve tribes of Israel.”

But the 144,000 are not sealed until long after Daniel’s seventieth week has begun (particularly if we assume that the seal judgments of Revelation 6 are part of Daniel’s seventieth week). And if the 144,000 are not sealed until then, who are the witnesses martyred in Revelation 6:9 and Matthew 24:9? How can the Gospel be preached to the whole world during this time leading up to the End?

Remember that Christ describes events of Daniel’s seventieth week as being prior to the End. Part of the disciples’ questions were regarding when the End will come:

Matthew 24:3 (NKJV)
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

He replies that the initial signs are not part of the End:

Matthew 24:6 (NKJV)
And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Some of Christ’s followers will be killed, others will endure until the End. And the Gospel must be preached:

Matthew 24:13-14 (NKJV)
But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The time of the End is how Daniel refers to the Day of the Lord. When does it occur? Paul tells us it arrives with the second coming:

1 Corinthians 15:20-24 (NKJV)
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

A comparative study of the Olivet Discourse, Revelation 6, and the Day of the Lord leads inescapably to the conclusion that Daniel’s seventieth week contains these sequential elements:

1. time of false peace and deception
2. beginning of sorrows: war, famine, disease, natural disasters, and mass casualties
3. abomination of desolation and revealing of antichrist
4. the Great Tribulation: time of trouble for the whole world and global persecution of the elect by antichrist
5. signs in heavens
6. return of Christ (rapture)
7. the End/Day of the Lord

Most of the confusion over the timing of the rapture is the result of failing to distinguish the Great Tribulation from the Day of the Lord. The second coming is the time period that begins with the rapture and culminates with Christ standing on Mt. Olivet, where He first described these events to His disciples. Yes, God will be renewing His covenant with Israel for seven years, but Israel will not experience repentance as a whole nation until Christ returns/appears after the Great Tribulation and before the Day of the Lord. Prior to this, the Church will endure things she has endured throughout her history: war, famine, disease, natural disaster, and persecution. But the final and most severe persecution will be stopped by a worldwide meteor shower that forces everyone underground. This marks the completion of the Great Tribulation. Then the rapture will occur, Israel will experience national repentance, and God’s fiery wrath will be poured out on the world. After the trumpet and bowl judgments (containing God’s wrath) Christ will come to earth, defeat antichrist, and set up His kingdom here.

True believers are those who persevere, remain in the faith, endure to the end, cling to the hope of the Gospel, and continue to call on the name of the Lord Jesus. All of these are the work of God—His grace operating in us. It is His grace and mighty power that keep us despite the destructiveness of the world, the flesh, and the Devil. We are saved from sin and the wrath of God, not the troubles and persecutions of this present world.

John 16:33 (NKJV)
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.

John 17:15 (NKJV)
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

8 posted on 10/03/2020 7:05:49 AM PDT by unlearner (Be ready for war.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794 is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson