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To: ADSUM; who_would_fardels_bear
How can all the different fallible protestant doctrines be God’s Truth?

They cannot be all God’s Truth any more than that of Catholicism can be, nor that of Catholics. Consider the various types of Catholics your own church has, based upon their interpretation of what official RC teaching (the interpreter) is and means. Which is a result of they actions of the very solution to disunity, that of looking to the RC magisterium. For while tradRCs attack "Bible Christians" for their disunity due to conflicting interpretations of it, yet their interpreter is neither comprehensive nor without need or possibility of interpretation. Thus as one poster wryly remarked,

The last time the church imposed its judgment in an authoritative manner on "areas of legitimate disagreement," the conservative Catholics became the Sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X, the moderate Catholics became the conservatives, the liberal Catholics became the moderates, and the folks who were excommunicated, silenced, refused Catholic burial, etc. became the liberals. The event that brought this shift was Vatican II; conservatives then couldn't handle having to actually obey the church on matters they were uncomfortable with, so they left. ” Nathan, https://christopherblosser.wordpress.com/2005/05/16/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of-catholic-teaching (original http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/05/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of.html)

As one of your own lists them:

There are:

1. Church Militant who chastise the Bishops but not the Pope
2. The Wanderer supporters
3. The Remnant led by the brother of the publisher of The Wanderer who now disowns The Wanderer
4. The SSPX
5. Those that believe the SSPX is a valid Catholic organization but aren't members.
6. Those who believe the SSPX is in apostasy
7. Those former members of the SSPX that believe Fellay is too deferential to the Pope
8. Sedevacantists who believe Francis is the first anti-Pope or non-Pope
9. Sedevacantists who believe John XXIII was the first anti-pope or non-Pope and that the Second Vatican Council is invalid
10. Those that believe in various conspiracy theories that the Church is now completely controlled by: The Vatican Bank, Gays, Masons, Space Aliens, the Illuminati or some combination of the above
11. Various groups of reasonable Catholics who either quietly or on record disagree with the Pope but are unwilling to go all the way and call him a heretic
12. Various groups of reasonable Catholics who are willing to call the Pope a heretic but are also willing to wait for the process of replacement to unfold in an orderly manner

(NOTE: Church Militant may have changed its position recently to be more directly in opposition to the Pope but I haven't kept track.)

6 posted on 6/7/2019, 7:56:17 PM by who_would_fardels_bear

A web site popular among "RadTrad" RCs who reject Vatican Two is https://novusordowatch.org/start-here/ and which sums up the situation by saying,

In response to the phenomenon of the Vatican II revolution, there are three essential lines of thought that have been proposed as “solutions” to understanding the situation. This is not now the place or time to critique or justify any of them. For now, we want to just describe them: (1) despite appearances, nothing has really substantially changed, and any interpretation of Vatican II that arrives at the conclusion that there has been a substantial change must be incorrect; (2) we must oppose (resist) these substantial changes and stick to the traditional, age-old teaching instead and ignore the Vatican II novelties while recognizing, however, that the authorities in the Vatican are legitimate and genuine Roman Catholic authorities — we just cannot agree with them on these points; (3) because it is impossible for the Catholic Church to change substantially, and because Vatican II constitutes such an impossible substantial change, it is necessary to conclude that the authority which gave us Vatican II is not in fact the legitimate Catholic authority; that is to say, the “Popes” which gave us Vatican II are not true Popes, nor are their successors, who have implemented and expanded this new religion that has its roots in the council. In fact, the entire religion that now occupies the Vatican and the official structures of the Catholic Church throughout the world is false — it is not the Catholic religion at all, and its putative authorities are not Catholics but heretical usurpers.

Thus we have articles such as Is Catholicism about to break into three? Pope Says he Prays U.S.-Led Schism Can Be Thwarted

Note that the above divisions are mostly among those who hold to a supreme substantial transcendent standard and basic rules of interpretation. Such usually have substantial agreement but since they are committed to doctrine then they have the most manifest disputes, as was the case of Congregatio de Auxiliis:

Finally, after twenty years of public and private discussion, and eighty-five conferences in the presence of the popes, the question was not solved but an end was put to the disputes. The pope's decree communicated on 5 September 1607 to both Dominicans and Jesuits allowed each party to defend its own doctrine, enjoined each from censoring or condemning the opposite opinion, and commanded them to await, as loyal sons of the Church, the final decision of the Apostolic See. That decision, however, was not reached, and both orders, consequently, could maintain their respective theories, just as any other theological opinion is held. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregatio_de_Auxiliis

However, liberal RCs do not make as much noise as those committed to doctrine, and likewise under the vast umbrella called Protestantism then perhaps only about half actually believe in the Bible as the as the accurate and wholly God-inspired supreme authority. And those who in contrast do most strongly esteem Scripture thusly testify to being far more unified in basic beliefs than those who Rome manifestly considers members in life and in death.

And while this does not excuse the real divisions btwn such (which are primarily 3, that of Arminianism vs Calvinism; Cessationism versus continuationism, and OSAS (Once saved always saved and Perseverance of the saints) vs


167 posted on 07/19/2020 11:56:09 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212

Your comment: “They cannot be all God’s Truth any more than that of Catholicism can be,”

For Protestantism, we are talking about church man made doctrines that disagree with the Word of God, not if all members believe all the same doctrines. The protestants fallible doctrines themselves are contrary to God’s Word. Many of their doctrines are fallible and changeable and certainly reject God’s Truth passed down through the centuries by the Catholic Church. They accepted some and rejected or changed the meaning to fit their needs. So protestants get to choose what to believe about God’s Truth?

Yes. Not all baptized Catholic fully practice the catholic faith or believe in all the faith and morals taught by Jesus and the Church. Yes. We have sinners on their journey. Catholic Church teaches that knowing God is a process that takes time and our worship and Sacraments give us sanctifying graces to grow our faith and avoid sin.

The Catholic faith is documented in the Catholic Catechism.

However, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and stated that He would be with His Catholic Church until the end of time.(Mt 28:20)

Yes. There are serious complications in the Catholic Church today (similar to problems in the past) and like any organization depends on the quality and honesty of people. Like Jesus, the church sometimes has to patient and wait for a proper resolution.

Faithful Catholics will stand by the Church just as Jesus has promised in spite of all the animosity that the world throws at her. We do have the Mass and the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and the Sacrament of Confession.


186 posted on 07/19/2020 3:53:47 PM PDT by ADSUM
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