Posted on 06/05/2019 6:27:25 PM PDT by grumpa
Dispensationalists don’t believe that Jesus is reigning now as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. They think his reign only happens in a literal thousand-year millennium sometime in the future. They think that Satan is ruling the world now. This seems like an astounding conclusion for any professing Christian, and a horrendous insult to our Lord—especially since the Bible teaches that Jesus is indeed reigning NOW as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Here are some Bible verses:
“For us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.” (Isaiah 9:6-7)
“And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me.” (Matthew 28:18)
“And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Luke 1:33)
“Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.” (John 12:31)
“As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching the good news of peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)” (Acts 10:36)
“For He must reign until He has put all his enemies under his feet.” (1 Corinthians 15:25)
“and seated Him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things under his feet and have him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.” (Ephesians 1:20-23)
“He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son. . . . He is the image of the invisible God. For by Him all things were created. . . . And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. . . . For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven.” (Colossians 1:13-20)
“He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of Kings and Lord of lords.” (1 Timothy 6:14)
“He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of his power.” (Hebrews 1:3)
“He who is born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.” (1 John 5:18
“And from Jesus Christ ‘the faithful witness,’ the firstborn of the dead, and ‘the ruler of kings on earth.” (Revelation 1:5)
“They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings.” (Revelation 17:14)
“On his robe and on his thigh He has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.” (Revelation 19:16)
1. If the land promise to Israel is forever and unconditional, why does God say it is conditional in Deuteronomy 28? Didn’t Israel receive all the land promised to Abraham in Joshua 21:43-45; 23:14-15?
2. Wasn’t the “Israel of God” (Galatians 6:15-16) given to those individuals, either Jew or Gentile, who believe (Romans 2:28-29; 10:1-4; Galatians 2:15-16; 3:28-29, 4:24-31; 1 Peter 2:5-10; Revelation 3:9)?
3. Doesn’t the New Testament explain that while the physical temple was about to be destroyed (Matthew 24:2; 34), it is being replaced by the church with Christ as the cornerstone and Christians as the living stones (Ephesians 2:20-22; 1 Peter 2:4-8)?
4. Are there any references in the Bible to the temple being built a third time? If there is going to be a rebuilt Jewish temple in the future, why does Scripture say God does not dwell in temples made by hands anymore (Acts 7:48, 17:24)? Isn’t Christ the new temple (John 2:19-21; Revelation 21:22)?
5. Don’t all the New Testament texts comparing Israel to a fig tree point to Jerusalem’s destruction rather than its restoration (example: Luke 13:6-9)?
6. Do you believe that two-thirds of the Jews will be slaughtered in a Holocaust II (John Walvoord’s book "Israel in Prophecy")? If so, how can you call yourself pro-Israel? When you pray for Jesus to come soon, or the supposed imminent rapture, aren’t you preaching or even asking for a near term slaughter of the Jews? Isn’t this teaching based almost entirely on one verse—Zechariah 13:8—yet the New Testament places the previous verse (13:7) squarely in the time of Christ (Hebrews 13:20)? Isn’t it clear enough that Zechariah 14:2 must refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70?
7. If we are in the New Covenant era, which Scripture says is FOREVER (Hebrews 13:20), why would God go back to a temple system of the Old Covenant which Paul called bondage (Galatians 4)?
8. If God was going to go back to animal sacrifices for sin in a future millennium, does that mean Christ died in vain (Galatians 2:21)?
9. Why can Jesus’ earthly kingdom be set up in earthly Jerusalem, when Jesus himself said the hour was coming when worshiping God would NOT be in Jerusalem (John 4:21)?
10. Doesn’t every mention of the last days in the New Testament refer to the first century (Matthew 24:3, 14, 34; Acts 2:14-20; 1 Corinthians 7:29-31; 10:11; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:1-5; Hebrews 1:2; 9:26; James 5:3-9; 1 Peter 1:5, 20; 4:7; 2 Peter 3:3; 1 John 2:18; Jude 18).
11. Is there anywhere in the New Testament a trace of evidence for a secret, invisible, instantaneous rapture of the church? If Jesus is going to rapture the church out of the world, why does Jesus pray for the exact opposite thing to happen—that the church would NOT be taken out of the world—in John 17:15?
12. Is there any verse in the Bible that teaches a “seven-year tribulation? If the great tribulation (Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:21) is global, why did Jesus tell those living in Judea to flee to the mountains to avoid the tribulation (Matthew 24:16)?
13. How can Jesus’ kingdom have not yet come, when John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and the apostles all declared the “kingdom of God is at hand” (Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7; Acts 28:31)?
14. Is there a single verse that explicitly teaches that the antichrist will make a covenant with the Jews and then break it? Is the antichrist even mentioned in Revelation?
15. Can you prove that there is a two thousand-year gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9? Aren’t the 70 weeks confined to the AD 70 destruction of the temple per Daniel 9:27 and 12?
bkmk for later study.
Are you saying dispensational theology say Christians are all going to worship in a temple? I don’t think so.
Are you Mr. Meeks?
Just wondering.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I wrote a placemark for further study and that is what I meant.
Amen brother! He lives and rules forever and it’s time for believers to start acting like it!
‘Tis I.
Jesus rules and reigns within us. That’s the Good News. Satan can only throw thoughts at us in an effort to cause doubt in our minds about that fact.. Those thoughts are Fake News (what a coincidence, huh?). When enough people wake up to this reality, that’s when things will reach critical mass in the physical world and Satan’s sorry ass will be cast into to Hell. Actually, he’ll go there voluntarily because his hate is so complete he can’t stand to be in the presence of God.
I don’t think I’m a dispensationalist; that terminology was never used in my church. But I’ll answer your questions anyway.
1. If the land promise to Israel is forever and unconditional, why does God say it is conditional in Deuteronomy 28? Didn’t Israel receive all the land promised to Abraham in Joshua 21:43-45; 23:14-15?
Solomon certainly thought they’d received all the land promised. Deuteronomy 28 is filled with blessings and cursings upon behavior, including captivity and slavery. The prophets make it clear this is temporary and Israel will return, which they did in 536 BC.
2. Wasn’t the “Israel of God” (Galatians 6:15-16) given to those individuals, either Jew or Gentile, who believe (Romans 2:28-29; 10:1-4; Galatians 2:15-16; 3:28-29, 4:24-31; 1 Peter 2:5-10; Revelation 3:9)?
Absolutely. The Church is Israel as Paul teaches. Gentiles are grafted onto Israel. But it is Israel plus the Church, not the church instead of Israel.
3. Doesn’t the New Testament explain that while the physical temple was about to be destroyed (Matthew 24:2; 34), it is being replaced by the church with Christ as the cornerstone and Christians as the living stones (Ephesians 2:20-22; 1 Peter 2:4-8)?
Yes, the Church is the temple of God. But the phrase ‘the church replaces the physical temple is not used in the Bible.
4. Are there any references in the Bible to the temple being built a third time? If there is going to be a rebuilt Jewish temple in the future, why does Scripture say God does not dwell in temples made by hands anymore (Acts 7:48, 17:24)? Isn’t Christ the new temple (John 2:19-21; Revelation 21:22)?
Yes. Ezekiel 45-50 covers the third temple to be built after Jesus’ return. This temple is for the non-Christians who will live in the Millenium. As physical, not spiritual people, they need a physical temple until they follow Christ.
5. Don’t all the New Testament texts comparing Israel to a fig tree point to Jerusalem’s destruction rather than its restoration (example: Luke 13:6-9)?
Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 Ad and again in 130 AD, but it was rebuilt and is here to this day. Many prophecies in the speak of its existence during Jesus rule in the Millenium.
6. Do you believe that two-thirds of the Jews will be slaughtered in a Holocaust II (John Walvoord’s book “Israel in Prophecy”)?
This is a prophecy in Ezekiel 5 and I believe it, although it’ll be all 12 tribes of Israel, not just the Jews. Also, the rest of mankind will also die in droves in the tribulation.
If so, how can you call yourself pro-Israel?
I’m not killing them; this will be the Beast power during the tribulation.
When you pray for Jesus to come soon, or the supposed imminent rapture, aren’t you preaching or even asking for a near term slaughter of the Jews?
Don’t be silly. We’re praying for Christ to end the slaughter. These are people hating the Jews who are killing them.
Isn’t this teaching based almost entirely on one verse—Zechariah 13:8—yet the New Testament places the previous verse (13:7) squarely in the time of Christ (Hebrews 13:20)? Isn’t it clear enough that Zechariah 14:2 must refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70?
Actually, I was taught about Ezekiel 5 which also speaks of 2/3 death of Israel. You’re right about Zech 13 v.7 fulfilled by Jesus’ death and the scattering of His disciples, but that doesn’t mean v. 8 can’t be fulfilled at another time.
7. If we are in the New Covenant era, which Scripture says is FOREVER (Hebrews 13:20), why would God go back to a temple system of the Old Covenant which Paul called bondage (Galatians 4)?
Because the Old Covenant was designed for people without the Holy Spirit. That’s all that will be left on the Earth after Jesus’return. The church will all be in spirit bodies. 1 Cor 15. As people come to Christ during the Millenium they will move from the Temple system to the New Covenant.
8. If God was going to go back to animal sacrifices for sin in a future millennium, does that mean Christ died in vain (Galatians 2:21)?
Absolutely not. Those without Christ will sacrifice until they come to Christ.
9. Why can Jesus’ earthly kingdom be set up in earthly Jerusalem, when Jesus himself said the hour was coming when worshiping God would NOT be in Jerusalem (John 4:21)?
The Old Covenant was physical for physical people. The worship was in Jerusalem so physical people could see a physical temple. As spiritual people Christians do not need a physical temple, but we are a temple. We worship in Spirit and truth.
10. Doesn’t every mention of the last days in the New Testament refer to the first century (Matthew 24:3, 14, 34; Acts 2:14-20; 1 Corinthians 7:29-31; 10:11; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:1-5; Hebrews 1:2; 9:26; James 5:3-9; 1 Peter 1:5, 20; 4:7; 2 Peter 3:3; 1 John 2:18; Jude 18).
Absolutely not. The Olivet prophecy covers three questions, 1) when will these things be? (the fall of the Temple) 70 AD The answer to this one is in Luke 21:20-21 “when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then flee” The church actually did that, according to Josephus. 2) What will be the sign of Your coming? (Jesus) Matthew 24:29-30 says heavenly signs will occur before Jesus’ return and 3) the sign of the end of the age? Matthew 24:14 “This gospel will be preached through all the world as a witness to all people, then the end will come”.
11. Is there anywhere in the New Testament a trace of evidence for a secret, invisible, instantaneous rapture of the church?
As far as I understand the Bible, no. The rapture takes place at the second coming of Christ, at the 7th trumpet. (1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thes. 4, Revelation 11)
If Jesus is going to rapture the church out of the world, why does Jesus pray for the exact opposite thing to happen—that the church would NOT be taken out of the world—in John 17:15?
See above.
12. Is there any verse in the Bible that teaches a “seven-year tribulation?
No, but many that speak of three and a half years of the Beast persecuting the church, the Jews, and the whole world. Revelation 12, and 13 Daniel 11 and 12
If the great tribulation (Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:21) is global, why did Jesus tell those living in Judea to flee to the mountains to avoid the tribulation (Matthew 24:16)?
Two different times, one foreshadowing another. The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD foreshadows the destruction the church and Jews in the tribulation by the Beast power.
13. How can Jesus’ kingdom have not yet come, when John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and the apostles all declared the “kingdom of God is at hand” (Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7; Acts 28:31)?
The Kingdom of God is wherever the Holy Spirit is, inside every Christian and of course Christ.
But the Kingdom of God led by Jesus only rules Christians now. After Jesus’ return, it will be visible on earth and rule non Christians as well.
14. Is there a single verse that explicitly teaches that the antichrist will make a covenant with the Jews and then break it? Is the antichrist even mentioned in Revelation?
This is an interpretation of Daniel 9:27, with which I disagree. The antiChrist is called the Beast in Revelation 13 and 19.
15. Can you prove that there is a two thousand-year gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9? Aren’t the 70 weeks confined to the AD 70 destruction of the temple per Daniel 9:27 and 12?
Yes. Daniel 9:24 itself shows the weeks did not end with the destruction of the temple. Speaking of the purpose of the 70 weeks, v. 24 says “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy”
This is what the 70 weeks encompass. Jesus put the end to sin and atoned for wickedness. but not all transgression in Israel is finished yet, to this day. Everlasting righteousness certainly refers to Jesus and every Christian to some extent, but no Christian is perfected yet and righteousness does not rule the earth. Jesus was certainly anointed as King after His ascension, but He is not visibly on the earth. So the prophecy is not yet finished.
I think you've peed in the swimming pool by starting out this thread with your own snide comments. Don't expect to hear thoughtful discussions on the questions you raise unless you first demonstrate you can tolerate other views.
“I know that a lot of Freepers are dispensationalists. I’m sure that many of you will offer your rebuttal and snide comments—so go for it. But many different groups of Christians disagree with dispensationalism, and ask legitimate questions of dispensationalists. Here are just some of them:”
With a warm introduction like that...no.
I don’t know what a dispensationalist is but I believe Christ’s reign
is spiritual, about every other thread on F.R is about gay pride or worse
any one can see that Satan is taking over the religion system.
Jesus said to the religious leaders you are the sons of your father
the devil, they are still the sons of their father the devil and they are
now showing who they really are.
To: Forgiven Sinner
Good work and very nice try. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
People debate doctrines endlessly. My way is correct because... no my way is correct because...
And everybody is right because of all those proof text chapter/verses in parentheses.
It’s the established way, contrary to the Spirit of Revelation.
Spinning in circles is a popular pasttime. Everybody looks so incredibly busy “working for the Lord”. Few want to learn how to fly, free as a bird.
Then the Messiah shows up and people don’t recognize him because he doesn’t match anyone from the doctrinal buffet selections. Truly his visage is so marred that he no longer resembles a man.
Elijah was taken up to heaven alive in a whirlwind but then returned as a new baby named John. How am I supposed to know how that works but it’s what it is on its face. There’s nothing to interpret there. If people believe the NT that’s what happened.
Lots to discover out there, such as the original blueprints, plans.
The King of Kings is the ultimate “Can Do” kind of guy. What doesn’t he know how to do, and teach. The established order says get rid of that guy, who wants to learn anything new. Besides, he makes all the useless slackers look bad merely by his existing, doing, and showing the way while they’re occupied reasoning amongst themselves and/or gunning for the exits.
It’s so hard to find good help these days.
He obviously isn’t doing a very good job.
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