Posted on 12/18/2018 6:55:36 AM PST by amessenger4god
...in the meantime, the message for all the detractors should be: No, Pope Francis is not rewriting the word of God" (see, "Pope Francis Calls for Change to 'Lord's Prayer' and Critics Go Mad").
...if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit" (Matthew 15:14, ESV).
Matthew and Luke are the only biblical authors to record the content of Jesus' model prayer to the disciples known throughout the world as "The Lord's Prayer." Luke appears to have a more condensed version, and so, for the sake of clarity and convenience, we will stick with Matthew's gospel for our purposes here.
When you survey the English versions for Matthew 6:13, you will discover that virtually everyone follows the lead of the KJV and translates the Greek word peraismos as "temptation." However, when you look up the word in most Bible lexicons or dictionaries, you'll find that there is a broad range of meaning available.
For example, I have found three primary definitions in the semantic range for peraismos, Strong's 3986:
(1) Trial
(2) Testing
(3) Temptation
As you can see, these words in isolation evoke different imagery even though they are synonymous. Context, as always, is important in order to narrow down which definition in the semantic range is appropriate for any given verse. Therefore, it is possible that some of the confusion surrounding Matthew 6:13 could be resolved if more Christians understood that the ideas of "testing" and "trial" are legitimate English translations for peraismos.
Nevertheless, some will still confuse this verse in the Lord's Prayer with James 1:13. On this alleged contradiction please refer to Dr. Wallace's article linked above. When peraismos is used with God or Satan as the subject, Dr. Wallace makes an important theological point of distinction, "God tests; Satan tempts."
But the Pope along with many others will object, "God would never lead or bring anyone into temptation, that's the Devil's job." Oh, really? So God would never lead, bring, or send someone to be peraismoed [tested, tried, tempted, etc.]? Well, as it turns out, we don't have to go very far to answer that rebuttal. Just turn back a couple of pages to chapter 4:
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted [Grk. peraismos] by the Devil..." (Matthew 4:1, HCSB).
Although the KJV renders [Matt. 6:13] 'deliver us from evil,' the presence of the article indicates not evil in general, but the evil one himself. In the context of Matthew's Gospel, such deliverance from the devil seems to be linked to Jesus' temptation in 4:1-10: Because the Spirit led him into temptation by the evil one, believers now participate in his victory" (in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pg. 233).
...the temptation that the Lord faced was the ultimate temptation—the offer of the entire world on a platter. Jesus can ask the disciples to pray that the Father would not lead them into temptation and that God would deliver them from the evil one precisely because Jesus himself faced the ultimate temptation by the evil one...[i]t is precisely because of Jesus' substitutionary death and life that this prayer can be recited today by Christians with the full assurance that God will answer us. Pope Francis's translation, however, subverts all this...[t]he original text speaks clearly of God leading, not permitting. To tamper with the wording misses the connection with the Lord's temptation."
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death..." (Revelation 2:22-23, NKJV).
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing [Grk. peraismos], that hour which is about to come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 3:10, NASB).
After this I looked, and there in heaven was an open door. The first voice [Jesus] that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, 'Come up here..." (Revelation 4:1, HCSB).
I’m Greek Orthodox, ie Christian. Not my Popel
Want cheese with that whine? How about a bunny with a pancake on its head?
I agree that that is the Protestant position. We Catholics believe that Jesus himself appointed the disciples to exercise authority on his behalf and they appointed their successors and so on to the current crop of bishops and that the “mystical knowledge” you refer to is actually the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We could argue back an forth which of us is right on this point, but I doubt we’d resolve a 500 year old dispute in the comments to a post. The actual point I was weighing in on was whether the article took the Protestant position and called the Pope “self-appointed” which it clearly did.
We have actually been told in the past that the Holy Spirit does not guide the college of cardinals in the selection of the new pope.
If He doesn't even guide in that, something that theoretically should be top priority, then why would He bother guiding in anything else.
And how do you know when the Holy Spirit is guiding and when He's not?
I was referring to your magisterium and traditions which Roman Catholics have told me on this forum is equivalent to if not superior to scripture
If they tell you that the magisterium is superior to scripture please correct them because they are mistaken about what the Church teaches. But to be honest I doubt any Catholic who is active on FR would believe that.
The Pope is not the top priority. The top priority is unity and correctness of teaching of faith and morals. This is what Catholics believe the Holy Spirit helps preserve from error.
IF the pope is supposed to be the Vicar of Christ and he's not selected by the Holy Spirit, per some Roman Catholics, then how can you be sure the leader of the RCC is not making error and is being guided by the Spirit?
It’s not like the Dalai Lama. Catholics do not believe that some people (other than Christ himself and his mother) are exempt from sin and incapable of error and therefore the goal of the Church should be to find them and let them lead us infallibly through their own goodness. Instead, every Pope including Peter has been a sinner like the rest of us who is very much capable of being wrong, and even denying Christ verbally (Peter) or by his actions (Alexander IV). We believe that where the Holy Spirit gets involved is in guiding the teaching and unity of the whole Church, led as it is (in its human institution) by sinners, and protecting it from teaching error.
This article explains the Catholic position on the specific question (of picking the Pope) reasonably well:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/does-god-pick-the-pope
By the way, I don’t expect that you will agree with any of this. I’m well aware of the Protestant position. But I do hope this will help you understand some of what the Church teaches about the role of the Holy Spirit in the magisterium, even if you don’t agree with it.
Well, that's the question that's being asked....is the current pope guided by the Spirit when he makes this statement regarding the meaning of the passage in question or on other issues that have the RCC somewhat aflutter?
That’s a good question, but it’s not the question you asked. The question you asked was:
“IF the pope is supposed to be the Vicar of Christ and he’s not selected by the Holy Spirit, per some Roman Catholics, then how can you be sure the leader of the RCC is not making error and is being guided by the Spirit?”
Consider it a follow up.
How does He do that?
Though I certainly appreciate the necessity to periodically publish the "rules" for posting on Free Republic, it would sure be nice if some of the more easily-offended could understand that disagreement with and communication of one's contrary beliefs do NOT equal "personal attacks".
But you can get so much more mileage out of claiming personal attack.....
Because, of course, no one has EVER done that before. /sarc
Answer: We know from James 1:13 that God does not tempt us to sin. If God did tempt us to sin, He would be acting contrary to His holy nature, against His desire for us to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16), and against all other commandments in Scripture that tell us to avoid sin and flee temptation. In the Lord’s model prayer (Matthew 6:9–13), Jesus says, “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one” (verse 13). The inclusion of a request for God not to lead us into temptation teaches us that avoiding temptation should be one of the primary concerns of the Christian life.
The idea of God leading His people is a main theme of Scripture. The book of Psalms especially is filled with pleas for God to lead us in His ways (Psalm 5:8; 27:11), by His truth and righteousness, and in “the way everlasting” (Psalm 139:24). Along with leading us toward good, we understand that we are asking God to lead us away from evil. The petition in the Lord’s Prayer not to be led into temptation reflects the believer’s desire to avoid the dangers of sin altogether. This phrase, then, must be understood in the sense of “permitting.” Jesus taught us to pray, “Do not ‘allow’ us, or ‘permit’ us, to be tempted to sin.” This request implies that God has such control over the tempter as to save us from his power if we call upon our Heavenly Father.
There is another sense in which we are to plead with God not to lead us into temptation. The word temptation can also refer to trials. We know from 1 Corinthians 10:13 that God will not test us beyond our ability in Christ to bear it and will always provide a way out. But God sometimes subjects us to trials that may expose us to Satan’s assaults for His own purposes, as in the cases of Job and Peter (Luke 22:31–32). If the temptation in the Lord’s Prayer refers to trials, then the meaning of Matthew 6:13 is, “Do not afflict or try us.” It is not wrong to pray that we may be delivered from trials and suffering, as long as we submit ourselves to the will of God, no matter what it is. The believer can rightly ask to be delivered from testing as well as ask for the strength to endure it if it does come.
We might illustrate Jesus’ words “Lead us not into temptation” like this: a mother takes her young children grocery shopping with her and comes to the candy aisle. She knows that taking her children down that aisle will only stir up greediness in their hearts and lead to bouts of whining and pouting. In wisdom, she takes another route—whatever she may have needed down the candy aisle will have to wait for another day. In this way the mother averts unpleasantness and spares her children a trial. Praying, “Lead us not into temptation,” is like praying, “God, don’t take me down the candy aisle today.” It’s recognizing that we naturally grasp for unprofitable things and that God’s wisdom can avert the unpleasantness of our bellyaching.
Whether we are asking for God to lead us away from sin or from difficult trials, our goal is found in the second part of verse 13: “Deliver us from the evil one.” A petition similar to this is offered by David in Psalm 141:4: “Do not let my heart be drawn to what is evil so that I take part in wicked deeds along with those who are evildoers; do not let me eat their delicacies.” In all things, God is our deliverer, and we are wise to seek His power over sin.
And yet God, in His wisdom, planted the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil right smack in the middle of the Garden. Yes--Satan tempted Eve, but God allowed it, and *knew* it would happen.
I agree with everything you said in your post. Good answer!
So what did Rome do....they attempted to silence them.
Not much has changed.
However, the Gospel message will prevail....always.
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