Posted on 12/13/2018 9:06:35 AM PST by SeekAndFind
Moves to change the wording of the Lord's Prayer used by Catholics around the world appear to be gathering pace as the Italian Bishops' Conference has submitted a new version to the Vatican for approval.
At issue is the wording of the line usually rendered in English as 'and lead us not into temptation'.
Pope Francis last year took issue with that, saying it was wrong to imagine God could tempt people to do wrong and that it was 'not a good translation'. 'A father does not lead into temptation, a father helps you to get up immediately,' he said
He suggested the French version, 'do not let us enter into temptation'; Spanish-speakers have also changed their version, from 'lead us not into temptation' to 'forgive us our mistakes', though German bishops have declined to change the prayer.
The version suggested by Italian Catholics is, 'abandon us not when in temptation'.
At issue is not so much the literal translation of the Bible in Matthew 6:13, which does clearly imply that God is being asked not to do something. The Greek eisenenkēs, means to 'lead into' or 'bring in'; it is a second-person singular verb, in the active voice and the subjunctive ('expressing wish or desire') mood. If anything it is even more emphatic in the Latin favoured by the Church: 'Et ne nos inducas in tentationem.'
But questions of translation always involve some consideration of what words mean in context; some interpretation is not only permissible but is required. In this context, the verse concludes with 'but deliver us from evil', seeming to make God both responsible for evil and responsible for deliverance from it, with very little room in the middle for human choice. And this, of course, reflects a certain understanding of the mysterious sovereignty of God. But it's also true to say that while in the providence of God we may go through tempting and testing times, these are not to be sought after or welcomed (after all, we might fail the test!) – so this is a prayer of humility, showing a proper trust in God.
If a translation can make that clear, without doing violence to the text, it should be welcomed; as things stand, the version commonly used in English raises many questions which it isn't always easy to answer.
One short and snappy alternative is Eugene Peterson's in The Message: 'Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil.'
Exactly- those wishing to change it are in essence saying “Jesus didn’t state it quite correctly enough- We’ll fix it for him’
Feel free to edit Jesus Christ. Man is an arrogant moth**f*****, but jeebers.
First of all,Jesus said pray in this fashion,He never said pray it word for word.
Secondly,after Jesus was baptized He was led by the Spirit of God into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil for 40 days.
We can safely assume then that God can lead us to be tempted and tested but allows the devil to do the actual work.”See the book of Job”
Knowing we might fail,its a good idea to ask God not to lead us into temptation.
[[I never once thought God was leading into temptation, in the Lords prayer.]]
Me either- I always thought that it was a prayer to God to keep me from being in situations where i might fall, asking Him to direct my path away from such situations, if it be His will to do so- I never ever thought the prayer meant that God would tempt me with evil intent by putting me in tempting situations
I have heard that the commandment “thou shall not kill” is actually “thou shall not commit murder” in Hebrew, which makes more sense.
OK.
Personally, temptation is a part of the Refiner’s fire.
1 Corinthians 10:13 also uses word temptation in at least some translations. That passage indicates that G-d always provides an escape from temptation. So leave Lord’s Prayer alone and teach 1 Corinthians 10:13 along with it.
Insights welcome.
You are exactly correct.
There’s a cost to changing the core prayer of Christianity that most Christians have said every day of their lives. In addition, “Lead us not into temptation” is poetic; at least, I’ve always understood it to be implying that we are asking God to direct us in the exact opposite direction of temptation.
The Catholic Church is currently being rocked by a series of scandals and this Pope is, to put it mildly, controversial. Is it really necessary right now to mess around with the wording of the Lord’s Prayer? I should think common sense would dictate that rank-and-file Catholics are not the least bit concerned with the accuracy of translations of prayers they’ve said their entire lives and that changing what seemed certain while the Church is being rocked is not the sensible thing to do. In other words, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”
I suspect Bergoglio’s intention is even more devious: changing the Lord's Prayer will rock Catholics who are too disengaged to pay attention to scandals in the Church and to internecine battles over doctrine. This Pope doesn't believe in the Catholic faith and is TRYING to wreck the Church. There are Catholics who know ONLY the Lord's Prayer and the Hail Mary. Scoff if you like, but there will be Catholics who will hear the Lord's Prayer said differently in Mass and who walk out of Church and will never come back (except for weddings and funerals). Count on it.
Sure, just as soon as we can change to a new Pope.
“..... not lead us into temptation.....” is what the Greek says.
https://biblehub.com/text/luke/11-4.htm
Leave it.
It wouldn't be the first time Roman Catholicism presumed to *improve* on the work of the Holy Spirit.
But I guess that's what you get when you think that you wrote the Bible and that it is subservient to your denomination.
Why I sympathize with the motivation to change the prayer- it seems strange to think of God leading us to temptation- the current form is the best translation we have of what Jesus gave the apostles. I am not comfortable with straying to far from the clearest and most direct translation.
On reflection I had a thought if maybe what those words point out to us is there is a fine line between being under the power of evil and the temptation to fall into the doing evil deeds. Jesus reminds us again and again how an easy life and wealth causes men to fall away. The wealthy and powerful often are insolated from the evils of this world, but respond by doing evil to those under them, at the same time those in lowly positions and have much evil done to them often do not have much opportunity to be tempted into doing evil. Even in Genesis Adam was safe from evil in paradise, but still fell into temptation triggering the fall. In the standard wording we are warned to stay on the narrow path.
When we pray this petition that Jesus taught us: “Lead us Not Into temptation”, we confess our inability to stand against Satan on our own and remind ourselves that we can defeat sin only if we stand firm in Christ our Savior.
This is a petition that is intended more to keep our focus on our need for the help of God than it is to move Him to act in a certain way.
After all, God never allows His children to face a temptation that it is impossible to overcome. In fact, in every temptation we face, the Lord provides a way out (1 Corinthians 10:13).
But we cannot take advantage of this way of escape if we do not look for it. The surest way to failure is to look within ourselves for the power to resist sin instead of looking outside ourselves to Christ and the way out of every temptation He provides. By asking God continually to deliver us from evil, we become more aware of the need to look for this escape in the hour of trial.
God tempts no one (James 1:13), but He sovereignly ALLOWS the world, the flesh, and the Devil to tempt His people.
Yet, the temptations we face are all common to mankind, and He does not tempt us past the point that we can, with His help, endure (1 Corinthians 10:13).
Thus, when we succumb to temptation, we cannot blame Him for presenting us with circumstances that are unusually powerful or so uncommon that we have an excuse for giving into sin. The fault when we sin is wholly our own, for we give in only when we try to resist Satan in our own power and do not ask the Lord to show us the way out.
Yes. I interpret it as “lead us away from temptation”.
Ann, try this on for size:
...’and lead us -— NOT into temptation; but deliver us from evil’
To me, this emphasizes how the Lord will lead us AWAY from temptation IF we ask Him in the faith contained in His Prayer. And I didn’t have to change one jot or tittle, just added a little “oomph” to that one word
Let me know how that works for you. It made 1000% difference in my attitude about that bothersome phrase.
-a Roman Catholic since 10/31/1948
Well, there are Roman Catholic writers who've suggested the Spirit can be bypassed and go straight to Mary.
If they won't go by the very texts they claim to have given anyone and have added to it through their "Tradition" then why not? They do claim the "magisterium" afterall.
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