Posted on 10/02/2018 5:51:36 PM PDT by marshmallow
Sure it’s responsible. If it’s not, it’s authority means nothing.
Everyone in positions of authority are responsible for what happens under their watch and policing what happens.
Absolving Roman Catholicism of responsibility as you are is exactly where the Catholic church has gone wrong in this whole mess. That would make you as guilty of being complicit as they are.
If you read Scripture, that book that Catholics claim to have written, you will see that Jesus expects church leaders to administer church discipline and will hold them accountable. Judgment first begins in the household of God.
If the situation had been reversed and it was a *Prot* church that this happened in, y’all would be holding every person in that church, right down to the church janitor, accountable for it, along with every other non-Catholic in the country.
And we’ve seen this time and again as y’all have done it for every idle word that has come out of some non-Catholic’s mouth.
Vlad argues semantics to absolve his denomination of responsibility.
Though it IS true Scripture teaches us that giving to the Lord is a test of our faith, it furthers the reach of the gospel, helps others' physical needs, supports the local church and brings the giver blessings, it never says these blessings will "become a pathway to wealth, health and good luck". I've seen the principles of cheerful giving played out personally in my life. I've seen how sacrificial giving has matured my faith and trust in God. I've seen how others are blessed and provided for in much more ways than simply materially. Finally, I've seen that adage "you can't out-give God" repeatedly proven true all the while trusting that the rewards may only be known in eternity.
We know unscrupulous Catholics sometimes violated Church law and practice and sold indulgences but the Church never authorized nor approved of it.
Questions & Answers Concerning Indulgences
1. What is an indulgence?
An indulgence is the full or partial remission of temporal punishment for sins after the sinner confesses and receives absolution. Under Catholic teaching, every sin must be purified either here on earth or after death in a state called purgatory.
2. How did the practice of dispensing indulgences begin?
The first known use of plenary indulgences was in 1095 when Pope Urban II remitted all penance of persons who participated in the crusades and who confessed their sins. Later, the indulgences were also offered to those who couldn't go on the Crusades but offered cash contributions to the effort instead. In the early 1200s, the Church began claiming that it had a "treasury" of indulgences (consisting of the merits of Christ and the saints) that it could dispense in ways that promoted the Church and its mission. In a decretal issued in 1343, Pope Clement VI declared, "The merits of Christ are a treasure of indulgences."
3. How were indulgences used in Luther's time?
In Luther's time, the pope delegated the privilege of dispensing indulgences. The Castle Church in Luther's Wittenberg, for example, was delegated the rare privilege granting full remission of all sins. Frederick the Wise, elector for the region of the Holy Roman Empire that included Wittenberg, took pride in a large collection of relics (over 19,000 holy bones and 5,000 other items*) of saints that supposedly provided the basis for granting indulgences that could reduce stays in purgatory by over 1.9 million years. These treasures were made available to believers on All Saints Day, November 1. By viewing the relics and making the stipulated contribution, the believer could reduce a stay and purgatory while providing much needed financial support for Castle Church and the University of Wittenberg.
Leo X, the pope in 1517, needed funds to complete the building of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. Leo entered into an arrangement that essentially sold indulgence franchises that allowed the franchisee to retain about half the funds raised by selling indulgences in return for sending to Rome the other half for Leo's construction project. To encourage indulgence sales, Albert of Brandenburg, one winner of the privilege of selling indulgences, advertised that his indulgences (issued by the pope) came with a complete remission of sins, allowing escape from all of the pains of purgatory. Moreover, Albert claimed, purchasers of indulgences could use them to free a loved one already dead from the pains of purgatory that he or she might presently be experiencing. The going rate for an indulgence depended on one's station, and ranged from 25 gold florins for Kings and queens and archbishops down to three florins for merchants and just one quarter florin for the poorest of believers.
4. What sermon about indulgences pushed Luther to act against indulgences?
In proclaiming the special indulgence offered by Albert of Brandenburg, indulgence vendor John Tetzel promoted it with a sermon that included a jingle of his own creation: "As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs." Tetzel made his way through Germany, entering towns as part of a procession that included local dignitaries, a cross bearing the papal arms, and the papal bull of indulgence carried on a velvet cushion. In the marketplace of each town, Tetzel would offer this sermon:
5. What were Luther's main objections to Tetzel's sermon?
As Luther biographer Roland Bainton observed, Tetzel's sermon "marked the apex of unbridled pretensions as to the efficacy of indulgences." Although Pope Sixtus IV had offered immediate release to souls in purgatory, Tetzel dispensed with the previously imposed condition that the purchasers of the indulgences for the dead demonstrate their own contrition. As Luther saw it, no human can know whether the remission of sins for any individual is complete, because complete remission comes only to those who show worthy contrition and confession--and worthiness is known only to God.
6. How did Luther choose to make known his criticisms of indulgences?
Luther summarized his objections in the form of ninety-five theses for debate. The 95 Theses denounced the promise of springing souls from purgatory on the basis of a monetary contribution alone to the Church. Moreover, Luther challenged the right of a pope to grant pardons on God's behalf. The power of pardon, Luther believed, was God's alone. If, indeed, the pope had the power he claimed, Luther asked why he didn't simply exercise it: "If the pope does have the power to release anyone from purgatory, why in the name of love does he not abolish purgatory by letting everyone out?" Luther's complaints also went to the Church's justification for promoting contributions. He complained about "the revenues of all Christendom being sucked into this insatiable basilica" when there were much greater needs, including "living temples" and local churches.
7. What happened next?
The scandalous use of indulgences in the 1500s led directly to Martin Luther's attacks on Catholic doctrine and, ultimately, the Protestant Reformation which changed the cultural and political face of Europe.
Have the peasants no torches or pitchforks?
Don't MAKE me come over there and teach you the difference between SELL and CONTRIBUTE!
Semantics - a.k.a. “weasel words”
Nor did anyone insist the money be refunded. ;o)
“but I think what Vlad is trying to relay is that the “sale of indulgences” was not (and is still not) an official teaching of the Catholic Church. ”
Hmmmmm...
“You can knock a thousand years off your dear mom’s time of burning and suffering in purgatory, by donating 100 gold Florins to rebuild St.Peter’s Cathedral! Give today, and ease her pain!”
Or...
You can knock a thousand years off your dear mom’s time of burning and suffering in purgatory, for just 100 Ducats to rebuild St.Peter’s Cathedral! Do it now and help dear old mom!”
The difference is huge!
It is my understanding that indulgences are for the person performing the indulgences and include things like prayers, reading Scripture, visiting churches and cemetaries, etc.
Sorry, I misunderstood your “Mom” comment. I thought you were referring to someone’s future time in purgatory. Still, show me where the Church teaches donating money rather than saying prayers, etc obtains an indulgence for a soul.
If you're really interested in the topic.
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2012/01/did-tetzel-really-say-as-soon-as-coin.html
It is true there are no canons claiming money gets you out of purgatory. However, Rome surely gave a wink wink, nod nod to what was happening on the ground.
It is also true there are no verses in the NT supporting the RC claim of purgatory.
The blood of Christ is either sufficient to cleanse you of all sins or it isn't.
No worries friend!
Still, show me where the Church teaches donating money rather than saying prayers, etc obtains an indulgence for a soul.
Hmmmm...
did, Rome ever return the 2/3 of the money Albrecht and Johann Tetzel raised by selling the Jubilee Indulgence??
The money is never returned. The really sad part is Rome never confessed to all those people they were wrong on this issue.
It seems the difference btwn a priest selling a indulgence, versus selling (a sale on the condition of money) a certified promise of an indulgence - the full remission of the temporal punishment due to sin - contingent upon contrite confession to a priest sometime before death, is the difference btwn a policeman selling a full pardon to a criminal, versus selling a certified promise of deliverance from any punishment due to the criminal as long as he contritely confesses to a judge, who will forgive him.
In both cases selling is going on, a conditional guarantee, and perhaps the state could make a lot of money if it adopted the Roman idea.
Teaches or Taught? And define selling an indulgence. See posts 28 , 40 and 47 .
I guess for some people "almsgiving" doesn't mean "money"?
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