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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Fundamentalists often criticize the Catholic Church’s practice of baptizing infants. According to them, baptism is for adults and older children, because it is to be administered only after one has undergone a “born again” experience—that is, after one has “accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior.” At the instant of acceptance, when he is “born again,” the adult becomes a Christian, and his salvation is assured forever. Baptism follows, though it has no actual salvific value. In fact, one who dies before being baptized, but after “being saved,” goes to heaven anyway.

As Fundamentalists see it, baptism is not a sacrament (in the true sense of the word), but an ordinance. It does not in any way convey the grace it symbolizes; rather, it is merely a public manifestation of the person’s conversion. Since only an adult or older child can be converted, baptism is inappropriate for infants or for children who have not yet reached the age of reason (generally considered to be age seven). Most Fundamentalists say that during the years before they reach the age of reason infants and young children are automatically saved. Only once a person reaches the age of reason does he need to “accept Jesus” in order to reach heaven.

Since the New Testament era, the Catholic Church has always understood baptism differently, teaching that it is a sacrament which accomplishes several things, the first of which is the remission of sin, both original sin and actual sin—only original sin in the case of infants and young children, since they are incapable of actual sin; and both original and actual sin in the case of older persons.

Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, “For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him” (2:39). We also read: “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a
connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: “Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Christ Calls All to Baptism

Although Fundamentalists are the most recent critics of infant baptism, opposition to infant baptism is not a new phenomenon. In the Middle Ages, some groups developed that rejected infant baptism, e.g., the Waldenses and Catharists. Later, the Anabaptists (”re-baptizers”) echoed them, claiming that infants are incapable of being baptized validly. But the historic Christian Church has always held that Christ’s law applies to infants as well as adults, for Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of belonging to his kingdom. He asserted such even for children: “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 19:14).

More detail is given in Luke’s account of this event, which reads: “Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’” (Luke 18:15–16).

Now Fundamentalists say this event does not apply to young children or infants since it implies the children to which Christ was referring were able to approach him on their own. (Older translations have, “Suffer the little children to come unto me,” which seems to suggest they could do so under their own power.) Fundamentalists conclude the passage refers only to children old enough to walk, and, presumably, capable of sinning. But the text in Luke 18:15 says, “Now they were bringing even infants to him” (Greek, Prosepheron de auto kai ta brepha). The Greek word brepha means “infants”—children who are quite unable to approach Christ on their own and who could not possibly make a conscious
decision to “accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior.” And that is precisely the problem. Fundamentalists refuse to permit the baptism of infants and young children, because they are not yet capable of making such a conscious act. But notice what Jesus said: “to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven.” The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to him and receive the kingdom. So on what basis, Fundamentalists should be asked, can infants and young children be excluded from the sacrament of baptism? If Jesus said “let them come unto me,” who are we to say “no,” and withhold baptism from them?

In Place of Circumcision

Furthermore, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as “the circumcision of Christ” and “the circumcision made without hands.” Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.

This comparison between who could receive baptism and circumcision is an appropriate one. In the Old Testament, if a man wanted to become a Jew, he had to believe in the God of Israel and be circumcised. In the New Testament, if one wants to become a Christian, one must believe in God and Jesus and be baptized. In the Old Testament, those born into Jewish households could be circumcised in anticipation of the Jewish faith in which they would be raised. Thus in the New Testament, those born in Christian households can be baptized in anticipation of the Christian faith in which they will be raised. The pattern is the same: If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul’s reference to baptism as “the circumcision of Christ”—that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision.

Were Only Adults Baptized?

Fundamentalists are reluctant to admit that the Bible nowhere says baptism is to be restricted to adults, but when pressed, they will. They just conclude that is what it should be taken as meaning, even if the text does not explicitly support such a view. Naturally enough, the people whose baptisms we read about in Scripture (and few are individually identified) are adults, because they were converted as adults. This makes sense, because Christianity was just beginning—there were no “cradle Christians,” people brought up from childhood in Christian homes.

Even in the books of the New Testament that were written later in the first century, during the time when children were raised in the first Christian homes, we never—not even once—find an example of a child raised in a Christian home who is baptized only upon making a “decision for Christ.” Rather, it is always assumed that the children of Christian homes are already Christians, that they have already been “baptized into Christ” (Rom. 6:3). If infant baptism were not the rule, then we should have references to the children of Christian parents joining the Church only after they had come to the age of reason, and there are no such records in the Bible.

Specific Biblical References?

But, one might ask, does the Bible ever say that infants or young children can be baptized? The indications are clear. In the New Testament we read that Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and that “She was baptized, with her household” (Acts 16:15). The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that “the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family” (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, “I did baptize also the household of Stephanas” (1 Cor. 1:16).

In all these cases, whole households or families were baptized. This means more than just the spouse; the children too were included. If the text of Acts referred simply to the Philippian jailer and his wife, then we would read that “he and his wife were baptized,” but we do not. Thus his children must have been baptized as well. The same applies to the other cases of household baptism in Scripture.

Granted, we do not know the exact age of the children; they may have been past the age of reason, rather than infants. Then again, they could have been babes in arms. More probably, there were both younger and older children. Certainly there were children younger than the age of reason in some of the households that were baptized, especially if one considers that society at this time had no reliable form of birth control. Furthermore, given the New Testament pattern of household baptism, if there were to be exceptions to this rule (such as infants), they would be explicit.

Catholics From the First

The present Catholic attitude accords perfectly with early Christian practices. Origen, for instance, wrote in the third century that “according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants” (Holilies on Leviticus, 8:3:11 [A.D. 244]). The Council of Carthage, in 253, condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld from infants until the eighth day after birth. Later, Augustine taught, “The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned . . . nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

No Cry of “Invention!”

None of the Fathers or councils of the Church was claiming that the practice was contrary to Scripture or tradition. They agreed that the practice of baptizing infants was the customary and appropriate practice since the days of the early Church; the only uncertainty seemed to be when—exactly—an infant should be baptized. Further evidence that infant baptism was the accepted practice in the early Church is the fact that if infant baptism had been opposed to the religious practices of the first believers, why do we have no record of early Christian writers condemning it?

But Fundamentalists try to ignore the historical writings from the early Church which clearly indicate the legitimacy of infant baptism. They attempt to sidestep appeals to history by saying baptism requires faith and, since children are incapable of having faith, they cannot be baptized. It is true that Christ prescribed instruction and actual faith for adult converts (Matt. 28:19–20), but his general law on the necessity of baptism (John 3:5) puts no restriction on the subjects of baptism. Although infants are included in the law he establishes, requirements of that law that are impossible to meet because of their age are not applicable to them. They cannot be expected to be instructed and have faith when they are incapable of receiving instruction or manifesting faith. The same was true of circumcision; faith in the Lord was necessary for an adult convert to receive it, but it was not necessary for the children of believers.

Furthermore, the Bible never says, “Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation except for infants”; it simply says, “Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.” Yet Fundamentalists must admit there is an exception for infants unless they wish to condemn instantaneously all infants to hell. Therefore, the Fundamentalist himself makes an exception for infants regarding the necessity of faith for salvation. He can thus scarcely criticize the Catholic for making the exact same exception for baptism, especially if, as Catholics believe, baptism is an instrument of salvation.

It becomes apparent, then, that the Fundamentalist position on infant baptism is not really a consequence of the Bible’s strictures, but of the demands of Fundamentalism’s idea of salvation. In reality, the Bible indicates that infants are to be baptized, that they too are meant to inherit the kingdom of heaven. Further, the witness of the earliest Christian practices and writings must once and for all silence those who criticize the Catholic Church’s teaching on infant baptism. The Catholic Church is merely continuing the tradition established by the first Christians, who heeded the words of Christ: “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God” (Luke 18:16).

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004


178 posted on 08/11/2018 7:31:45 PM PDT by NKP_Vet ("Man without God descends into madness")
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To: NKP_Vet

Hi NKP_Vet. Haven’t seen you in a while and I hope you are well.

Since we already are discussing an article on this thread, I’d love to read or respond to your comments... but not to an additional article.

Perhaps you can choose one or two points you want to discuss from your article and post them to me.

Best.


179 posted on 08/11/2018 7:33:44 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: NKP_Vet
Furthermore, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as “the circumcision of Christ” and “the circumcision made without hands.”

NO, Paul has not...It would be easy to tear apart this entire little theses you put out but one correction should be enough to blow the rest of them out of the water...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

So you guys even watch what you are reading??? Apparently not...

There is no water anywhere in this scripture...It's talking about a medical procedure like circumcision...An operation...No hands involved...So it's a spiritual operation...

So what's getting operated on??? The verse tells you...

You are standing there and contained within your being is a physical body, a soul and a spirit (1st TH 5:23)...They are all connected...The YOU part of you is your soul...Most people seem to think the YOU is your body, your flesh...But it's not...That's just a covering

The verse tells us that this 'operation' consists of God cutting away that body of the flesh from our 'inner man' (Eph 3:16)...

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

When this spiritual operation takes place we enter into a spiritual baptism (no water) where we are risen and buried with Jesus Christ through WATER
the faith of the operation of God...

Now this is the Catholic's water baptism:

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

And what is John's baptism???

Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water;

And here in the rest of that verse is the spiritual baptism, the operation made with out hands that Paul speaks of:

but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

(Ever see the Holy Ghost sprinkling water on a baby, or anyone else?)

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

They had already been baptized in water with John's baptism...Now they were getting baptized again, with the baptism of the Holy Ghost (no water)...

203 posted on 08/11/2018 10:32:14 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: NKP_Vet; Mr Rogers
Fundamentalists often criticize the Catholic Church’s practice of baptizing infants. According to them, baptism is for adults and older children,

Which is more (we need your money) Catholic Answers (https://www.catholic.com/tract/infant-baptism) lying sophistry, even if you did not provide the link (not that we regulars would think you wrote it) which relies upon strawmen and or abuse of Scripture. First off, fundamentalists (for years i was a Fundamentalist Baptist, and you do not get more "Fundamental" as per the RC use than that) do not characteristically teach baptism is only for adults and older children, for I have seen kids as young a 4 be baptized. What the RC avoids is that the ability to fulfill the manifest and or stated condition for baptism is the issue, which the Catholic ignores.

According to them, baptism is for adults and older children, because it is to be administered only after one has undergone a "born again" experience—that is, after one has "accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior." At the instant of acceptance, when he is "born again,"

Which as shown, is wholly Biblical:

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Acts 10:43-47)

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)

In fact, one who dies before being baptized, but after "being saved," goes to heaven anyway.

What a terrible thought! Innocent infants going to Heaven, as if they would be punished for something they had not part in from the moment of conception.

Only once a person reaches the age of reason does he need to "accept Jesus" in order to reach heaven.

Meaning the alternative is that they must decide to repent and believe on Him from the moment of conception.

Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39).

By which attempted abuse of Scripture the RC shoots himself in the foot, for it actually teaches what he wants to condemn: that baptism requires moral cognizance, to understand what Peter preached, and resulted in manifest "what shall we do?" conviction.

We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

Likewise. Can and do infants do this? NO!

for Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5).

Which nowhere mentions baptism as being referred to, and instead, as is characteristic of John, the physical and the spiritual are set in juxtaposition:

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:4-5)

"Born of water corresponds to the mention of physical birth by Nicodemus. Likewise that which follows,

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Thus there are only two kinds of birth, of water and the Spirit. of flesh and Spirit

And Acts 10+15 is the definitive teaching on this, in which lost souls heard the gospel, and were promise forgiveness if they believed, and which they manifestly did, and then were baptized, God having purified their heart by faith.

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Acts 10:43-47)

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)

Which reveals that it was the faith behind baptism in Acts 2:38 that effected regeneration, for as said, since baptism properly requires and expresses faith, so the promise of the Spirit is made to those repent and are baptized in identification with their Lord Jesus.

‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16)...Luke 18:15 says, "Now they were bringing even infants to him"..Jesus said: "to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven."

Which simply does not teach that they even needed baptism, much less that there were being baptized, which Caths can only wish it did. For it is clearly taught that those who could and did believe were baptized, and nowhere that infants were.

If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.

Bad hermeneutic, for based upon require full correspondence then women are excluded, while on the other hand lost adult souls were circumcised without conversion. (Gn. 34) And while circumcision was specifically enjoined for infants, and also for them without a manifest precondition of faith, nowhere is it for infants in the NT., where faith is the precondition. In addition, one can see by the analogies of Christ then there need not be full correspondence ("go to them that sell..." - Mt. 25:9) .

The pattern is the same: If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith.

Which simply lacks full correspondence to what Catholicism teaches, for she exhorts baptism even of infants who have no opportunity or expectation of being "raised in the faith."

Fundamentalists are reluctant to admit that the Bible nowhere says baptism is to be restricted to adults, but when pressed, they will.

Again, this is not accurate.

They just conclude that is what it should be taken as meaning, even if the text does not explicitly support such a view.

Actually, that baptism is for those who are able to hear and respond to the word is what numerous texts does not explicitly support, while that infants are to be baptized is what Catholics insist texts "should be taken as meaning, even if the text does not explicitly support such a view."

there were no "cradle Christians," people brought up from childhood in Christian homes.

Really? So children such as of those 3k+ souls born again in Acts 2 would not have raised their kids in Christian homes, and even have at least teenagers by the time the NT was competed? This apologist not only sees what Scripture does not teach, but also what it does:

When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. (2 Timothy 1:5)

Even in the books of the New Testament that were written later in the first century, during the time when children were raised in the first Christian homes, we never—not even once—find an example of a child raised in a Christian home who is baptized only upon making a "decision for Christ."

That requirement "proves too much," for in the books of the New Testament that were written later in the first century, during the time when children were raised in the first Christian homes, we never—not even once—find an example of a child raised in a Christian home who is baptized as an infant.

Rather, it is always assumed that the children of Christian homes are already Christians, that they have already been "baptized into Christ" (Rom. 6:3).

Which is consistent with fundamental churches who baptize children as soon as they can testify to volitional saving faith. In contrast, as meaning infant baptism that is simply blatant, unwarranted presumption and more abuse of Scripture. For instead those who were being addressed in Rm 6 were believers:

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you . (Romans 6:17)

If infant baptism were not the rule, then we should have references to the children of Christian parents joining the Church only after they had come to the age of reason, and there are no such records in the Bible.

Conversely, If infant baptism was the rule, then we should have references to infant of Christian parents being baptized, and there are no such records in the Bible. But if believers baptism was the rule,, then we should have references to such joining the Church only after they had come to the age of reason, and there are many such records in the Bible.

But, one might ask, does the Bible ever say that infants or young children can be baptized? The indications are clear. In the New Testament we read that Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and that "She was baptized, with her household" (Acts 16:15). The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that "the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family" (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, "I did baptize also the household of Stephanas" (1 Cor. 1:16). ..Granted, we do not know the exact age of the children; they may have been past the age of reason, rather than infants.

And in every case of baptism save for the mere mention of the household of Stephanas, the ability to hear/comprehend and thus believe is stated or implied, as was shown.

Thus once again the CA apologist strikes out.

Fundamentalists try to ignore the historical writings from the early Church which clearly indicate the legitimacy of infant baptism.

Of course, since the uninspired writings of such simply cannot be determintive of what the NT church believed, and often testify to the progressive accretion of traditions of men which are simply not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation.

Thus this pilfered polemic is manifest as prevaricating propaganda.

226 posted on 08/12/2018 5:46:59 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: NKP_Vet

Excellent posting. Thank-you and God Bless.


244 posted on 08/12/2018 3:27:25 PM PDT by Biggirl ("One Lord, one faith, one baptism" - Ephesians 4:5)
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