Posted on 08/04/2018 12:37:05 PM PDT by ealgeone
Can. 1373 A person who publicly incites among subjects animosities or hatred against the Apostolic See or an ordinary because of some act of power or ecclesiastical ministry or provokes subjects to disobey them is to be punished by an interdict or other just penalties.
If so, what is the penalty for this?
Send a dubium to CDF and they’ll tell you! (ha ha?)
Nice try.
Why not?
The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.§3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.
The language seems to apply to two different groups.
Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.
§2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.
§3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PU.HTM
In either case, the Roman Catholic has to follow the pope.
Is that spelled out in canon law or is that your take?
Further, as a lay person, who cannot understand the Scriptures on your own....how do/can you determine what is or is not heresy?
I believe this is very close to the argument that Luther expressed at his trial. "the pope's decretals have thrown utter disorder into Christianity, have surprised, imprisoned, and tortured the faith of the faithful...contrary to the gospel."
Moral theology 101. Very basic stuff; doesn't need to be spelled out in canon law.
Further, as a lay person, who cannot understand the Scriptures on your own....how do/can you determine what is or is not heresy?
< Okay, if the Nicene Creed says that Jesus is "God from God, Light from Light, and True God from True God" and the Pope says, "No, that's not right; Jesus is not God at all" ... then it doesn't require a STD (doctoral degree in theology) to know that the Pope is teaching heresy.
Or, if for instance, the Pope were to say that the death penalty is intrinsically immoral, then it doesn't require much subtlety in reading scripture to note that, since God prescribes the death penalty for 36 separate offenses in the Mosaic Law, the Pope is accusing God of teaching people to sin, and that's heresy.
You're trying to pretend like no Catholic can allow any trace of independent thought into his skull, and that's simply not correct.
Which is a different matter than the one in the canon ealgeone posted.
It’s one thing to go to the clergy and make their wishes known.
It’s another to incite others in opposition or animosity to the Holy See. to the
But on what basis does one have the right or ability to determine that the pope is in heresy or sin and they don't have to adhere to doctrine?
How is the laity qualified to make that determination?
Does it depend on the person's interpretation of the CCC?
And for that you depend on the Nicene Creed instead of Scripture???
No wonder the Roman church is such a mess.
By the way, there is no teaching of the Church that says lay people cannot "understand the Scriptures on their own". (Why would we read them at Mass, if they were incomprehensible to the laity?)
However, my own personal interpretation of the Scriptures may be right or it may be wrong -- it has no authority in and of itself -- and the way to know if I am right or wrong is to look at the traditional teaching of the Church. Not "what the Pope said today," but the traditional teaching of the Church going back 2000 years.
This is no different at all from Hank Hannegraaf appealing on the "Bible Answer Man" to something he called "the historic Christian faith" in refutation of the odd heresies people brought up to him. The point is that the ideas you think you've derived from the Bible still have to be tested and found consistent with what the Christian faith has always taught.
Not understanding this basic principle is why we have liberal Protestant denominations trying to convince themselves and the world that God now approves of sexual perversions, where the Church (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox -- I don't care) has always understood them to be abominations.
The Nicene Creed says it explicitly, without ambiguity or the possibility of confusion. I think you already know that the Jehovah's Witnesses think they can argue that Christ is non-divine from the Bible. Their arguments are wrong. Nobody who can read can possibly argue it from the Nicene Creed, which is why the Jehovah's Witnesses reject it.
You're changing the terms of the discussion. I never said anything about the Pope himself being "in heresy or sin". I spoke of the Pope commanding me to sin by professing heresy.
Not everything Luther said was always and everywhere wrong.
Scripture can suffice for supporting the claim about the divinity of Christ.
Just where do you think the folks that made up the Nicene Creed got their ideas?
Hello, they used SCRIPTURE.
I never said otherwise. I merely said that the Nicene Creed was unambiguous.
Why are you going out of your way to pick a fight with me over the fact that I cited the Nicene Creed as an authority? Plenty of Protestants recognize the Nicene Creed as an authoritative statement of faith. Argue with them.
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