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To: Iscool; CondoleezzaProtege
"But to say that "celibates have no credibility" is idiotic." ... I would say that has nothing at all to do with fact, but only opinion...

True. Right you are. And it's an idiotic opinion.

"God says celibates shouldn't even be in the clergy let alone marriage counselors..."

First, I suspect you think "celibate" means only the "never-married." It does not. It means living in the manner of an unmarried person. A celibate may be person who is a virgin, or a person divorced, or separated from their spouse, or widowed. There is no doubt that, at the time of the writing of his Epistles, Paul was celibate: he says so himself. He may indeed have been a celibate widower.

If one maintained that, on God's orders, a celibate man is unsuitable for the clergy, then a man whose wife died would be disqualified from the clerical state since, being a widower, he is now celibate. This makes no sense.

Second, God does *not* say celibates should not be in the clergy. St. Paul was celibate, and he recommends it.

Third, onre might ask, "since this is the case -- celibacy is recommended by St. Paul, who was himself celibate (probably widowed) --- then how does one understand the passage (1 Tim 3:2:12) where Paul says that bishops ought have been married but once, and ought to have shown themselves to be capable heads of their own households?

I think CondoleezzaProtege addresses this well: #246

(I'll wait a minute while you click the link and read it.)

OK, then:

First, Paul recommends those who are celibates, like himself: "An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs -- how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world -- how he can please his wife -- and his interests are divided."

Second, if it's a man who had been married, he should have been married but once, a man who has raised his children and governed his household well. (Note that this could be a widower, not a man presently married.)

"It was very clear that clergy must have a wife and children..."

That's not so. It's clear that if he were a married man, he should be one who had had but one wife, who had a good reputation because his children had been raised well, and his household ordered well.

It doesn't mean he has to be married right now, a man presently in the midst of all the many commitments of pleasing his wife, running his household, and raising a passel of kids. A widower respected in the community, having already successfully discharged these family duties in an exemplary way, would qualify.

150 posted on 07/08/2018 6:21:56 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Third, onre might ask, "since this is the case -- celibacy is recommended by St. Paul, who was himself celibate (probably widowed) --- then how does one understand the passage (1 Tim 3:2:12) where Paul says that bishops ought have been married but once, and ought to have shown themselves to be capable heads of their own households?

That's not so. It's clear that if he were a married man, he should be one who had had but one wife

That's a phony fabrication of what those scriptures do not say...You are not quoting the 'word of God' when you change his scripture...Clergy must be married with a family...

Your religion had no clergy celibacy rule till about the 12th Century when it apparently was fully taken over by homosexuals and instituted this unGodly idea that clergy no longer had to have a wife...

154 posted on 07/09/2018 8:26:28 AM PDT by Iscool
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