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To: metmom

And why is it important whether it’s “hail” or “greetings”?


77 posted on 06/15/2018 11:28:05 AM PDT by Mercat
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To: Mercat; metmom
Do you have a cite or website for you translation of the Greek from which Ave Maria was derived?

Of the major translations only the Douay-Rheims renders the passage as Hail, full of grace.

The Greek for the passage in question is as follows:

καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.

I have bolded the word for Greetings. It is in the imperative mood in Greek. Normally this is the mood of command.

However, Daniel Wallace, who has forgotten more NT Greek than most of us will ever learn, notes the following:

Sometimes the imperative is used in a stereotyped manner in which it has suppressed its original injunctive force. The imperative is reduce to an exclamation. This occurs especially in greetings.

Luke 1:28 Greetings, favored [lady]! The Lord is with you.

Greek Grammer Beyond the Basics, Wallace, p493

I offer the following from the Word Bible Commentary series on Luke 1:28. These were the books used in my seminary classes. This section is posted in its entirety.

28 εἰσελθὼν πρός, “going into,” is Lukan idiom (Acts 11:3; 16:40; 17:2; 28:8; and cf. esp. 10:3) and is balanced by the ἀπῆλθεν ἀπʼ αὐτῆς, “he departed from her,” of v 38. χαῖρε, “rejoice,” can be a conventional Greek greeting (Matt 26:49; 27:29; 28:9; Mark 15:18; John 19:3; not found in the LXX)—through which, nevertheless, an actual call to joy could sound in appropriate contexts (Strobel, ZNW 53 [1962] 87–105), as would be the case in this text. Here, however, the threefold structure: call to rejoicing + a vocative of address + a reference to the attitude or action of God which is the ground for joy (Stock, Bib 61 [1980] 469) takes us to a frequent OT pattern which in the LXX is introduced by χαῖρε in Joel 2:21; Zeph 3:14; Zech 9:9 (χαῖρε is only found elsewhere in Lam 4:21 in a parody of this pattern; cf. Ps 32:11; Isa 12:6; 44:23; 49:13; 52:9; 54:1; Joel 2:23; etc). Compare also the role of joy in the angelic statements of Luke 1:14 and 2:10. Mary is here greeted with a mini-oracle of salvation. χαῖρε is chosen here over joy words for the sake of alliteration with the following κεχαριτωμένη, “favored one,” and need not be Septuagintal. The extended parallelism between Zeph 3:14–17 and Luke 1:28, 30, 31 claimed by Laurentin (Structure, 151–59) and others, and made a basis for an identification of Mary as “daughter of Zion,” has little to commend it.

χαριτιουσθαι is a quite rare Hellenistic verb (only elsewhere in the NT at Eph 1:6 in the active). Etymologically it should mean “to be furnished with grace,” and it is used both in relation to intrinsic qualities for which a person is to be commended (like the English “well-favored”; cf. Cole, AER 139 [1958] 232–39) and also in relation to the receipt of special graces or privilege by a benefactor (“privileged”; cf. Audet, RB 63 [1956] 358–60; Cambe, RB 70 [1963] 202–5). The latter is undoubtedly to be preferred here and points already to the privileged role for which Mary has been marked out by God. As with the words to Gideon, “You mighty man of valor” (Judg 6:12, cf. v 14 and contrast v 15), the address already states enigmatically Mary’s task in the purpose of God (the “greatly beloved” of Dan 9:23; 10:11, 19 may have the same function and identify Daniel as marked out to be the recipient of special revelations). Lyonnet (Bib 20 [1939] 134) suggests an underlying use of the Hebrew root חנן, nan the same root that underlies the name John (cf. at v 13). An allusion to the name Hannah is also possible (1 Sam 1 and 2; cf. at Luke 1:46). κεχαριτωμένη is interpreted in the text by the declaration “You have found grace with God” in v 30 (see there).

In a greeting, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ or a similar form (“the Lord [is] with you”) occurs in the OT only at Judg 6:12 and Ruth 2:4 (van Unnik, “Dominus Vobiscum,” 281) and thus, on the basis of the sustained links with Judg 6:11–24, is to be treated as an allusion to the Judges text (the form is as LXX except for the initial article, which is also not Luke’s usage [cf. at 1:6]). This is no conventional or pious greeting but announces the dynamic power of God’s own presence, the effects of which will be spelled out particularly in v 35. The promise or statement of the presence of God runs like a thread through OT history (see van Unnik [“Dominus Vobiscum,” 276–79] for a partial list) and here reaches a certain culmination.

Nolland, J. (2002). Luke 1:1–9:20 (Vol. 35A, pp. 49–50). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

And why is it important whether it’s “hail” or “greetings”?

A bad translation can and often does lead to bad theology.

As an example...Genesis 3:15

15And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head,

And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

Only Douay-Rheims renders the passage as

I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head

, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges notes this regarding the translation:

The Vulgate ipsa conteret caput tuum is noticeable. By an error, it rendered the Heb. masc. pronoun (“he” = LXX αὐτός) by the feminine pronoun “ipsa,” ascribing to the woman herself, not to her seed, the crushing of the serpent’s head. The feminine pronoun has given rise to some singular instances of exegesis in honour of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The Catholic Encyclopedia Online:

The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6056

80 posted on 06/15/2018 1:33:59 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Mercat

What does any of that have to do with the content of post 71 to which you are replying?


99 posted on 06/15/2018 6:56:42 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith......)
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