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To: pastorbillrandles

A good article pointing out the three words used of the leaders of a local church: elders (older men), overseers, and shepherds.

The three words presbuteros, episkopos, and poimena are all used of the same office or job, and there was always a plurality of them in the NT, never the elder, the bishop, nor the shepherd of the congregation.

I’m curious why the word for shepherd, which occurs in the NT 18 times, is translated by the Latin word “pastor” only once. Do you know why that is? Why not a Hungarian word? Wouldn’t that have made as much sense?

Since you use pastor of yourself, do you know why that is? Aren’t the elders who you serve with also shepherds?
Thanks for reading, and considering


2 posted on 05/22/2018 4:51:39 PM PDT by FNU LNU
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To: FNU LNU

For my beloved brother Bill - whom I love and respect - a few simple points that I hope to elaborate on more tomorrow or Thur, since it is late here.

Nowhere in all the NT is any man referred to as “Pastor” as a title or position, and as used for men - other than the Lord Jesus, its use is only found once in all the NT, Eph. 4:11 - where it is plural - and only one of the gifts God gives to the church.

Jesus specifically condemned men using titles or positions in His kingdom, stating it was a way of the world that should not exist among His own.

The singular use of the word Pastor in all the NT is only used to refer to our Lord Jesus.

In Romance languages (Latin-based), there are not two separate words for “Poimen” - only the word ‘shepherd’ is used in translation of the Greek. English translations err to make a difference between the words because the Greek does not do this. I have ministered in Brazil and Nicaragua, El Salvador, speak both Spanish and Portuguese......

No letter in all the NT is addressed to a pastor. One address includes the elders - again, as you noted, always plural in relation to the church.

Not only is no man ever found leading a church as “pastor” in the NT, there is a remarkable absence of such - if the position of pastor were as most propose, the NT would be full of examples, and men with such titles. The absence of such speaks volumes, in in no other truth do so many leaders take a strong stand with no supporting scripture. And they would scream loudly to declare any other truth with such absence of scriptural support.

No where in the NT is any man given “executive” position or power over any church, or other leaders. No where. To try to use James as an example is a case of poor exigesis that one would never use elsewhere.

Timothy was trained not as a pastor, but as a co-worker of Paul’s - i.e., as an apostle. Only apostles could appoint and ordain elders, which both Timothy and Titus were charged to do. Both traveled and ministered extensively with Paul, trained to serve as he did.

The “angel” (Gr: “messenger”) in no way can be proven to have been a pastor or “the” pastor.

Elders are charged “to shepherd” (verb form of ‘poimen’, ‘pastor’), so “pastoring”, “shepherding” is the responsibility of all elders - not with one singled out. This does not mean all are gifted as pastors, but all are to function pastoring. Some are gifted as pastors. As elders are always plural in the NT, so are pastors, functioning in their gift as pastor.

Nowhere in the NT is the the concept or example of “Senior Pastor”, or “Executive Pastor”, placing him above all other pastors. All serve just as elders do, in plurality, in submission first to the headship of the Lord Jesus, and in submission to one another.

The headship of the Lord Jesus in the church is totally practical and real, and no man is a mini-pope, or local pope. (someone joked, ‘All Baptists are Papists. They just believe the Pope is local.’ I love my Baptist brethren.....)

For men to function in oneness under the sole headship of the Lord Jesus is impossible. Apart from the power and reality of the Holy Spirit. But such functioning of Christ’s invisible headship is a great miracle, that testifies of His reality as Head of the church, King of kings, and Lord of Lords.

I have witnessed and experienced the reality of no single man leading/heading/”pastoring” in many churches around the world - to where visitors asked, “who is in charge here? who are the leaders?” because no human leader was seen, and where they were told, “the Holy Spirit is the leader, and the Lord Jesus Christ is the HEAD of the church.”, and the reality of it both blew the minds of visitors, caused many to return and commit, and declare that only Jesus was glorified. But then, that is subjective experience and proves nothing. Experiences vary.

Only God’s word does not vary.

Your fellow servant in Christ, and in His love,

Arlis


3 posted on 05/22/2018 8:01:45 PM PDT by Arlis
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To: FNU LNU

Good points, which I have not given enough thought to. I just use “Pastor” because I was raised in Christ with that use.Yes all of the elders are Shepherds, as are all mature Christians,in a sense of the word. Jesus said, “If you love me,feed my sheep”


4 posted on 05/22/2018 8:58:04 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles (ore and rebuild Jerusalem)
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