Nashville Statement Is Biblical But Lacks Pastoral Wisdom, Further Alienates LGBT Persons

Christian Post ^ | 09/09/2017 | Brandon Showalter

[PeterPrinciple]

Agree and the rebuke must be done in love. Rebuking someone’s sin any other way simply turns that person away from Christ.

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So if you can’t do it with love, don’t do it? You just don’t want to take the chance of offending someone do you? Offending someone to correct them IS AN ACT OF LOVE.

[usconservative]

You just don’t want to take the chance of offending someone do you?

Incorrect. I don't want to take the chance of being responsible and standing before God for having turned someone away from him permanently.

Do you get in someone's face and scream at them about being a sinner and they're going to hell unless they repent?

[daniel1212]

I referred to John 20:23. But I gladly include Matt. 28:19,20; Mark 16:15-18; Luke 24:47-49. If you don’t think that those orders were followed in Acts chapter 2, then you must be preaching another gospel.

Rather, ignoring how the rest of the NT shows how such texts were misunderstood, if you were interpreting those texts (as i had assumed) as teaching Catholicism's doctrine that souls should make confession of everyday faults (and must do for mortal sins) to her priests and receive sacramental absolution from them, and fulfill the penance they give which allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, (CCC 1455-1460) then you would be preaching another gospel, for the reasons shown.

The only regular confession of sins (apart from to God) that the NT exhorts is to each other in general that we be healed, and who also may exercise spiritual binding and loosing, and while confession of serious sins normally should be confessed to leadership who cares for them, esp. public sins that would scandalize the church, and whose intercession can obtain deliverance/healing from chastisement (even for sins of ignorance), this is not to Catholicism's distinctive sacerdotal priests but to NT presbuteros.

After the initial pouring out of the Spirit, Peter preached Christ. When the listeners admitted their conviction of sin, and asked “what shall we do?”, “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts 2:38 Are those instructions from heaven, or of men?

As regards teaching baptism as necessary for sins, it is the faith which baptism requires and expresses that purifies the heart, thus the promise of Acts 2:38. To be baptized as convicted repentant souls is to manifest the justifying faith in the heart, and confessing the Lord Jesus is confirmatory of salvation/saving faith. Thus while salvation is promised for those who will believe and obey, Peter did not require baptism for the washing of regeneration that purifies the heart, but that faith does: \

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Acts 10:46-47)

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith . (Acts 15:7-9)

While the kind of faith that is salvific is the kind which effects obedience, (Jn. 10:27-28; Heb. 6:9) and baptism is the first manifestation of that, is it faith which is counted for righteousness, (Rm. 4:5) purifying the heart justifying the heart, while the effects in heart and deed justify one as being a believer.

[PeterPrinciple]

“I don’t disagree with the document. I disagree with the tone in which it was presented. I disagree with the vacuum within which it was created, and I disagree with the rhetoric this will now create that will only further drive a wedge between evangelical Christians and the LGBT community.”

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Well, what tone will make the author happy. That comment is engrained with the worldly view of not offending. Jesus offended most of the people he encountered. Jesus came to divide and unite on one point. Do we know what it is?

Lets get back to basics, What did Jesus say he would build his church on? The understanding that Jesus is the messiah, the Son of the Living God. The consistent message of the Bible, REPENT AND TURN TO GOD.

Folks, we better do more dividing and uniting on the right issue.

Most churches are just worldly club houses, following govt ideas of tolerance.

[PeterPrinciple]

Nashville Statement Is Biblical But Lacks Pastoral Wisdom, Further Alienates LGBT Persons

WHAT?

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Yep, you have to read that slowly and let your lips move...............

[PeterPrinciple]

Do you get in someone’s face and scream at them about being a sinner and they’re going to hell unless they repent?

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A few thoughts

1) Where does your image of standing and screaming originate? That is the image the media has sold you on. That is what they hear NO MATTER what you do.

2) Again, you don’t want to offend anyone. Be honest about it. I don’t either. It is engrained in our culture.

3) “I don’t want to take the chance of being responsible” is a very revealing statement. There is a parable about that.

4) “they are going to hell unless they repent” is the most true statement on earth. It is what the prophets said, it is what John the Baptitst said, it is what Jesus said and it is what the Apostles said.

But if you prefer the “Repent and turn to God” to say it in a more polite way that is ok. But the world is still going to hate you. Is that “tone” any better?

[usconservative]

1) Where does your image of standing and screaming originate? That is the image the media has sold you on. That is what they hear NO MATTER what you do.

Your use of caps doesn't help ....

2) Again, you don’t want to offend anyone. Be honest about it. I don’t either. It is engrained in our culture.

Repeating myself here, it's not about "not offending" someone, it's about not turning them away from Christ. There's a difference here.

3) “I don’t want to take the chance of being responsible” is a very revealing statement. There is a parable about that.

And that parable would be? I'm willing to be enlightened here. I do not want to stand before God and be told "the reason that person right there is going to hell is because you turned them away from Me!"

4) “they are going to hell unless they repent” is the most true statement on earth. It is what the prophets said, it is what John the Baptitst said, it is what Jesus said and it is what the Apostles said.

As a sinner myself, I fully understand that's the most true statement on earth. :-)

But if you prefer the “Repent and turn to God” to say it in a more polite way that is ok. But the world is still going to hate you. Is that “tone” any better?

It's not what you say "repent and turn to God" it's how you say it. Note that in the article the author doesn't argue with the premise or Biblical principles of what the Nashville Statement is saying. The author is I think correctly pointing out that there are many who are starting their journey towards Christ or may be struggling to stay on the path towards Christ and they need encouragement to continue.

It's the difference between encouraging them to continue going in the right direction vs. constantly reminding them of their sins.

It's like raising children because in many ways we are like children in the beginning of our walk with Christ. Like we raise our children, we reward the behavior we want more of. Encouragement is a reward, is it not?

I don't think you and I disagree on premise or objectives (bringing more to Christ) I think we have some differences on method. :-)

[PeterPrinciple]

“If I preached on the Nashville Statement and declared my allegiance, would that help or hinder her own spiritual journey?” he asked. “Why would I be more comfortable with pastors and not Christian academics creating this document? Because orthodoxy divorced from relationships can many times lead to rhetoric that hinders (not helps) us achieve our overall mission, to lead all people to Jesus,” he said.

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1) I would hope he doesn’t preach on the Nashville Statement. His job is to preach the word. Nor is his allegiance to the Nashville statement, it is to God. Why would he even think that?

2) Would it help or hinder. Speaking the truth might very well be a stumbling block, or it can be a stepping stone. Wouldn’t it be nice to find out?

3) our overall mission to lead all people to Jesus? That is NOT what Jesus said. He said find his Sheep, the ones who hear his voice, the ones God has given Him. If they don’t want to hear God’s truth, shake the dust from your feet and move on. You planted a seed.

[Elsie]

But if you prefer the “Repent and turn to God” to say it in a more polite way that is ok. But the world is still going to hate you. Is that “tone” any better?

John 3:16-18

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

 

^{What "tone" is verse 18?}

[Elsie]

Speaking the truth might very well be a stumbling block, or it can be a stepping stone.

Jonah 3:3-5

 

Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it.

Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

 

The Ninevites believed God.

 

 

[Zuriel]

**Faith in Action**

Thou sayest it.

Let us look at faith in action (also known as obedience).

Able was commended for offering a better sacrifice, AFTER doing so.

Enoch was commended for pleasing God. Among other things, he was probably offering the appropriate sacrifice.

Noah (no doubt a burnt offering dude before the flood) was commended for moving with fear, building the ark.

Abraham (probably was ANOTHER animal incinerator before being called to leave home turf) was commended AFTER he obeyed.

In Gen. 15:5, this being the third time that God promised Abraham seed, tells him: “Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them...”.

Do you think Abraham just looked straight ahead and said, “I believe you Lord. I don’t need an aching neck from looking up at the stars.”? That is the “faith without flinching a muscle” mindset.

God sets conditions to faith. HIS conditions. I believe Abraham made a least a feeble effort to count stars, even if he quit inside of minute.

God didn’t commend Abraham for fearing Him, until he grabbed the knife to slay his son. The “faith without flinching a muscle” crowd would have Abraham’s faith commended before he got out of bed that morning.

Jesus Christ commended the faith of the palsied man and his roof demolition crew AFTER they were done getting inside the home.

“And when he SAW their faith.....”. Luke 5:20

Jesus Christ commended the faith of the woman that anointed his feet, AFTER she was done.

The thief was commended AFTER rebuking the unbelieving thief, and asking for mercy from the Lord.

There remaineth no more offering for sin. But one still needs the blood applied. Gotta be buried with him. That’s why he commanded that baptism be performed by his ordained ministers. It’s the one specific physical action, that he ties to salvation, that he makes special mention of in Matt. 28:19,20, and Mark 16:15,16. In John 20:23, he’s ordaining them to remit sins. In Luke, he’s commanding the preaching of repentance and remission of sins, in his name.

Acts 2:38 verifies the apostles follow through of the Lord’s commands for conversion.

[Zuriel]

**While the kind of faith that is salvific is the kind which effects obedience,**

Yes, when one repents (one of the results of hearing and believing the gospel), one also believes that the command to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission sins, must be obeyed.

Look at the Lord’s emphasis in Matt. 28:19, and Mark 16:16. Look at the urgency of the apostles in baptizing souls. It was a right now thing that had to be done without needless delay. On the day of Pentecost, the Samaritans, the Ethiopian eunuch, Saul/Paul, the household of Cornelius, Lydia and household, the jailer and household, the 12 in Ephesus. And not to forget, Paul’s baptism retold:

“And now why tarriest thou, arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord”. Acts 22:16 (”why tarriest”?? See the urgency?)

Paul believed out on the road to Damascus, after being blinded and knocked down. Under the mainstream “believe on the Lord” (but selective about believing some of what he preached), Paul certainly didn’t need baptized by Ananias.

The Egypt exiting Israelites were not free from the curse of death, until being “baptized unto Moses, in the cloud, and in the sea”. They passed though, and the Red Sea took the curse away.

(I’m not RC. Don’t believe in the confession of sins to a priest dogma. Some of them are so bad they should be confessing to the parishioner, in stead of the other way around)

[cmj328]

Using a condom when I made love to my wife is immoral?

You said it. And I wouldn't call it an act of love, though you probably didn't know better.

Genesis 38:10.

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[daniel1212]

Yes, when one repents (one of the results of hearing and believing the gospel), one also believes that the command to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission sins, must be obeyed.

As explained and showed, since it is the faith that baptism requires and expresses that is salvific, thus Peter could promise forgiveness of sins if souls would repent/believe as shown be being baptized, thus manifesting that they believed.

And since it is the faith that baptism requires and expresses that is salvific, thus Peter could promise forgiveness of sins if souls would simply believe, and souls could experience the washing of regeneration before showing this by being baptized, God having purified their hearts by faith.

Look at the Lord’s emphasis in Matt. 28:19, and Mark 16:16. Look at the urgency of the apostles in baptizing souls.

There is neither emphasis over believing or urgency, but simply commanding what is to be done, and obeying it. I affirm the commandment to be baptized (with repentant faith) is to be obeyed, and should normally be part of the conversion event.

The Egypt exiting Israelites were not free from the curse of death, until being “baptized unto Moses, in the cloud, and in the sea”. They passed though, and the Red Sea took the curse away.

Actually they were not under the curse of death by applying the blood by faith, while they died due to unbelief.

[Popman]

Genesis 38:10 ?

So mastrubation and using a condom is the same thing...

Sorry, I can’t address such ignorance...

If you are going to cite biblical references at least understand what you are citing..

[Popman]

The passage you cite is not revalant to your point....hence your ignorance..

God killed Onan not because he spilled his seed, the bible doesn’t address the act of mastrubation, God killed Onan because he was disobedient to the law by not giving his brother an heir...

It’s plainly there to understand in context...

[Zuriel]

**Actually they were not under the curse of death by applying the blood by faith, while they died due to unbelief.**

The plague against the firstborn would have only killed the firstborn of the Israelites, if they hadn’t placed blood on their doorways. The plague did kill all of the firstborn in the land of Egypt, man or beast, where the blood was not applied. Pharoah, and much of his army, must not have been firstborn.

Paul said the Israelites were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea. At the Red Sea they were told that they would finally be delivered from the curse of the Egyptians (for under their yoke it was death or slavery, there was no promise of a new life):

“And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the SALVATION of the Lord, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.” Ex14:13

[Elsie]

So; what’s your take on having your tubes tied and/or a vasectomy?

[Elsie]

The response to the Nashville Statement continues with some scholars now saying it damages the church's already negative reputation with homosexuals, and lacks pastoral wisdom even though they agree with the document theologically.

That's good.

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A BIBLICAL Message to LGBT folks EVERYWHERE!

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Genesis 13:13

Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.

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Leviticus niv

18:22 Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

 

 

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Psalms 12:8 The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.

Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

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Romans 1     New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

 

 18 The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

 

24 Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. 29 They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. 

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2 Peter 2

1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

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But there IS hope!!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

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If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The Health Risks of gay sex.

Psalms 12:8 The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.

Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

---

Romans 1     New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

 

 18 The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

 

24 Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. 29 They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. 

---

2 Peter 2

1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

---

---

But there IS hope!!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

---

If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The Health Risks of gay sex.

[daniel1212]

The plague against the firstborn would have only killed the firstborn of the Israelites, if they hadn’t placed blood on their doorways. T

Thus you nullify this from being typological of redemption by the blood of Chris if this salvation only applies to the first born children.

Paul said the Israelites were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Which can represent both the baptism by the Spirit into the body of Christ (1Co. 12:13) and water baptism which confesses the Lord Jesus, signifying faith in Him. The issue is whether the act of baptism appropriates the washing of regeneration, or the faith that effects obedience, and whether souls can be thus washed before they are baptized.

It is clear that God purifies the heart by faith, and thus souls can be washed before they are baptized, but that faith that does not effect obedience, of which baptism normally is a part and the initial formal act, is not salvific.