“”””You underlined the wrong part, Zuriel has not denied the Father or the Son.
Please see boatbums post #106. Zuriel, whether intentionally or not, state Christ to be a created being. This contradicts what John states that Christ is eternal.””””
I should have added your name to my post to boatbums which contained this;
“..begotten, not made..” seems contradictory, especially when one reads this from Rev. 3:14: “..These things saith the
Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
That may just be because you read “the beginning of the creation of God” and think it means Jesus had a beginning. But we know from other Scripture that without Jesus, NOTHING was made that was made and He existed BEFORE all things and by Him everything was created. This means Jesus was the originator or the source of creation. Also, that verse from Rev. 3:14 is also translated as:
I read it the same way.
It would be no different than me, a very wealthy and experienced builder, deciding I wanted to create a large compound for the children I would have someday to all live together with their families. I have a son. I tell him what I want to accomplish. He agrees to follow my plans with no deviation and only answer questions after conferring with me. He builds a huge estate with materials I supply with me guiding every phase of construction. If you talked with my son at any time, It would be the same as talking with me.
My son built all phases of the compound but he didn’t create it. I, the father did. Just like Jesus’ heavenly Father created Him first to create this world for us.
“””Are you going to be a liar and not call Jesus the Christ, the anointed one of God as He and the Father claim or a god as men claimed 300 plus years after His death and resurrection?
You have two views here. The first is that Jesus is a man anointed by God. The second is that Christ is God. You failed to include the third possibility-that our Lord Jesus is BOTH God and Man. I’ll go with the third possibility.””””””
I believe Jesus is a man just like Adam. If he isn’t, God could not compare them as He does here;
Romans 5King James Version (KJV)
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
King James Version (KJV)
Jesus was born without the sin nature which is inherited from our father and grandfathers. He has a free will just like Adam. Adam used his free will to sin againce God.
Jesus uses his free will to live a sinless life pleasing God His Father
Jesus did not come to start a church, he came to be the one time blood sacrifice for us. If Jesus had to be divine to live a sinless life, as I have seen many claim, a righteous God could not punish us for something only a god can do.
“””You also states that men called our Lord Jesus “God” 300 years after his death. This is incorrect. Our Lord Jesus equated Himself to God and the Jews knew it.
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.””””
He equated himself to God but there no place in scripture where He calls himself God. It was part of the plan to have Him crucified.
Men calling Jesus God 300 years after His death is what the subject of this thread is about. By that time the ‘church’ had become catholic, not Christian. When I use the terms catholic and Christian, I am not referring to who is, or is not saved. Only God our Father knows whose names are in the Lamb’s book of life.
A Christian is a disciple of the Christ and only uses his teaching to form their religious belief.
The word catholic has this definition
adjective
1.broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; havingsympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.
2.universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.
3.pertaining to the whole Christian body or church.
Easy to see why some claim they added paganism to their belief system.
Most catholics, I have encountered, are against scripture alone. They claim their religion is based on what Christ taught the Apostles and tradition. Traditions, from what I have observed, is created when the majority of the leaders agree about a subject at any one time they make it part of their belief system.
“”””Christ also equated himself with God the Father:
Joh 14:89 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? “”””””
He stated He did nothing His Father didn’t ask him to say and/or do. In other words, He is His Father’s mirror image.
“”””You seem to have a hard time understanding Zuriel, stating in John, Jesus claiming His Father did the miracles thru Him.
No, I didn’t have a hard time. I said he was incorrect and provided a number of references. The scriptures doesn’t teach the FATHER did miracles thru our Lord Jesus. The scriptures teaches the miracles performed thru our Lord Jesus were performed by the Holy Spirit. This is a very subtle but most important point. We are empowered by the Holy Spirit just as our Lord Jesus was. “””
You just admitted Jesus did no miracles of his own. The fact Zuriel has been trying to have you understand.
May God our Father lead us to His Truth, BVB
John plainly states that Christ was "In the beginning". God the Father didn't "create" another God. He and the Father are one. If you see Christ you see the Father. Thus, God the Father wasn't created. Christ is the same as the Father.
Any types of analogies are poor but if you are so wrapped up in trying to figure out this mystery, and how the Father could begot the Son, and the Spirit proceeding from the Father/Son, I would suggest you think of God like a consuming fire. Within the overall fire another fire may start. The original fire didn't create it. It is part of the overall fire. The two fires burning one inside another have the exact same essence as each other. They are inseparable and it is impossible to know where one ends and the other begins. From these two fires may proceed another fire. Same problem. It is all one fire but burning, smothering.
The fire is the same essence but may take on different characteristics throughout a wooded area.
I believe Jesus is a man just like Adam.
And, sadly, people who believe that are not Christians. Unless people understand that God died for their sins and their need to repent and accept God's grace into their lives, they will die in their sins. Mormons believe Christ pattern is one to emulate so that they may live a good life. Well the truth is no one can live a good enough life for God. Only by accepting God's grace to erase our sins can we find peace on earth and joy in heaven. Not because of any works that we've done but because of the works that He's done.
Most catholics, I have encountered, are against scripture alone. They claim their religion is based on what Christ taught the Apostles and tradition.
I'm not sure of your background but you sound as if you're a Mormon. Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Catholics, etc. are all against scripture alone. Each have external sources they refer to. This is a serious and fatal error. Eventually it leads to a work based religion. Christianity is what God did for us. Everything else is what we need to do for God.
You just admitted Jesus did no miracles of his own. The fact Zuriel has been trying to have you understand.
You haven't been listening to what I've been what I have been writing. ;O)
You are trying to separate God the Father from God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They are all the same essence. So when I say that our Lord Jesus did works through the Holy Spirit, I am not saying that He didn't do any miracles of His own nor am I saying the Father didn't do any miracles. They ALL did the miracles because there is only ONE God. Each have a different function but it all is performed by the One. It is just like part of the fire burning a branch. Which part did it?