Posted on 06/27/2017 7:15:05 PM PDT by imardmd1
Jer 16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
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Said the blind man!
Genesis 2:2-3
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Well again Genesis 1:14 says specifically (in Hebrew) that the heavenly bodies are to be used to determine God's "appointed times" which are listed in Leviticus 23 of which the weekly sabbath is one.
And since God created the sabbath HOLY and it's recorded in the bible it's obvious that he would have TOLD his creation about it. In fact Jesus affirmed this later:
Mar 2:27 And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."
In other words Christ created the sabbath FOR people. He made the sun, moon, etc and cycles of day night so that men could know WHEN his sabbath occurs. He IS the very LORD that created the sabbath therefore he calls himself LORD of the sabbath. It was MADE for man and of course God's creation was told about it.
Adam and Eve knew about it. We saw earlier that Cain and Abel brought a sacrifice on what is very likely a sabbath.
God REVEALS things to his servants. He REVEALED his laws and commandments to Abraham for example:
Gen 26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
Now I will grant you that modern Christianity has muddied this issue because they hitched their wagon to a different "day" long ago. But it's a historical fact that the traditional Church did not officially abandon the sabbath of the Lord Jesus Christ until more than 300 years after his death.
Said the ignorant man, chiming in on the tail end of a discussion where this issue was brought up before, and dealt with in the CRI article posted:
There is no universal moral obligation given in Genesis 2 to keep the Sabbath.
Christ’s finished work on the cross, moreover, abrogated the Mosaic law,
and thus the fourth commandment no longer applies to Christians.
If you want to add some new information, find another angle. The context of your citation shows no more information regarding any application to the human circumstance. On the seventh day of the creation week, Adam was perhaps less than a day old. Jehovah Elohim (the name to the Godhead applied by Moses, the writer of Genesis) gave no instructions whatsoever to Adam about it, nor even that He mentioned it. Elephants or lobsters don't "observe Sabbath"; why Adam?
Adam had only one command, with the consequences stated. When The Fall occurred, there was no command to reserve any day for worship. You are trying to make an argument on your opinion of what you would like that passage to say. That is eisegesis, not exegesis.
It is not obvious. What is obvious is that there is no mention of God discussing it with Adam. Going on, your whole argument in this reply rests on your suppositions. It is manufacturing something out of nothing. You can't earn my respect by creating a myth.
The Jews kept the Sabbath, but after Christ’s resurrection no biblical data suggests that
Christians kept the Sabbath. They instead kept the Lord’s Day, which historically has been
the first day of the week (Sunday). Every day is for worship, not just the Sabbath. Sabbath
keeping may have some good purposes, but it is not an obligation for believers today, nor
is it a sign of apostasy or disloyalty to God not to observe the Sabbath.
Read the article through. Your (mis)use of Scripture is contrary to good interpretation.
Oh it's much deeper than a mere "universal moral obligation". Genesis chapter 1 and 2 is a description of the NATURE of the created world. It's a description of the natural laws that God BUILT into the world.
Acknowledging that Christ created his sabbath for MANKIND is supposed to be as universal as knowing that Christ created the earth for mankind. It's part of and included in the same sequence. It's MORE than a commandment...it's an innate part of our world created world.
Paul addressed the dangers of NOT recognizing this:
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
One of those things Paul is referring to here "since the creation of the world" is the sabbath of Christ. It's an ATTRIBUTE of creation that can CLEARLY be seen. It's RECORDED prominently in scripture. So there's NO excuse.
The alternative to NOT believing this is:
Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Christ’s finished work on the cross, moreover, abrogated the Mosaic law, and thus the fourth commandment no longer applies to Christians.
That's a meaningless statement that dismisses the entirety of the first five books of the bible as irrelevant to modern man...which of course leads to the conclusion that ANYTHING goes when it comes to Christian religion...which of course is where modern Christianity pretty much is. :-)
quote-When the Children of Israel left Egypt, manna fell every day except the Sabbath. Not hard to count from a hard and fast starting point.
jjotto,When the manna fell is a great study in light of how the Father tells time..
Scripture hints it was the 16th Day of the 2nd month when manna from heaven started- and the Father’s calendar confirms it.
Notably, it was also a ‘16th’ Day,the 16th Day of the 1st month(3rd Day from Passover aka Feast of First Fruits), when the Lamb rose from the grave to be First Fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
30 days apart- two 16th Days- both dealing with bread from heaven - manna for Physical Israel and The Bread of Life for Spiritual Israel.
It’s a picture that happenes each and every one of His months. Not just the 1st and 2nd months.
The 16th Day in every month on His calendar starts His 3rd week of work on His prophetic timekeeping-and that too is amazing.
It’s amazing because the 1st 3 weeks in every one of the Father’s months commemorate distinct works:
Week 1- Creation (Father)
Week 2- Redemption (Son)
Week 3- Convincing the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. (Holy Spirit)
Each week of work ends on the 6th and final work Day:
Father- 7th Day (Genesis 2 if translators haven’t messed)
Son- 14th Day (Passover)
Holy Spirit- 21st Day
And when work week ends, the 7th Day Sabbath begins:
Father- 8th
Son- 15th Day (1st day of Unleavened Bread)
Holy Spirit- 22nd Day (the ‘8th’ Day- see the Father- see the 22nd Day of the 7th month)
That is a pattern that people of faith would be blessed to see.
They can’t right now because they call today Thor’s Day..
A side note about the manna in the wilderness:
It was after 30 days in the wilderness that He fed them the manna.
The True Bread of Heaven uses 30 in a parable.
All for His Glory!
Cut and paste revisionist malarkey.
First of all there was not a widespread abandonment of the sabbath of Christ in biblical times. Never happened. Instead it was relatively slow process driven at first by cowardice and later by tradition.
The main reason..and it's a historical fact...why some early Christians abandoned the sabbath was because during and shortly after the time of Jesus Judah was in a near constant revolt against their Roman overlords.
Cowardly Christians, in an attempt to not look TOO Jewish and to separate themselves from the hated Jews, eventually succumbed to social pressures to abandon the sabbath of the Lord and to instead worship on a day that would make them less of a target.
It works the *exact* same way today. Scripture CLEARLY and absolutely teaches a 7th day sabbath but because Christians are too comfortable with Sunday and want to keep their friends and not be seen as rocking the boat or appearing strange they make all kinds of excuses NOT to honor the Lord by obeying his commandments but instead honor their tradition.
BpB: You didn't address the other points in the same posting. Post #138
Oh, but I did have a reply for your Post #124 all written up. But I thought, "This is a bit much for this moment." But now, since you asked:
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Now you're shifting the argument in Post #124.
I said that there was no mention of Sabbaths prior to Moses. I admit that making the Sabbath day a holy day was a commandment to the Israelites and only to them. I maintain, and you cannot disprove, that no Sabbath nor Sabbath ordinance was ever proclaimed before Moses was given Code 10 and it ramifications for the government of a nation that never before existed. It was a Code that God instituted for the purpose of showing them that they could not keep it individually nor corporately, and that they were doomed without a Savior Who could keep it.
Jesus fulfilled the Law, and put it to rest for humans forever, if they would wholly trust in His atonement and reconciliation, and not try to improve His Work with their additions.
You cannot become a Christian until you admit that you can never, ever, fulfill the Ten Commandments, no matter how hard you try. Even if you think evil, you have failed. If you are going to rely on the observation of the seventh day of the week as a requirement for salvation, then you must observe the whole table of the law. That route would require you to keep every point of the law without one instance of failure--not just having a perfect record of observed Sabbaths. Can you do that?
It is only when one gives up and admits one's utter depravity and culpability in God's eyes, and confesses one's own insufficiency, that God's Grace and Jesus' Blood can come into play to save. If a person thinks that the human concept of observing the Sabbath is acceptable to improve one's standing with God, that person should take another look. God's standard is much higher than the human concept of it.
It is only through Jesus' fulfilling it that God's righteous, fiery wrath against any attempt to earn one's way to Heaven could be placated.
Thinking that one can avoid the permanent discipline of Hell and the Lake of Fire by "observing the Sabbath"; and moreover, disputing that Christ's true disciples are wrong in congregating on another day for the memorial, for teaching, and for fellowship is, to me, foolishness of the first order, and very disappointing to see in supposed Bible enthusiasts.
Should all of them review their choices, examine themselves to see if they be in The Faith? The Bible counsels it (2 Cor. 13:5).
It looks like it's your brain that's creating malarkey, for the BIBLICAL sources contradict you. Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles, and their way of counting the day was different. They had no Sabbath, and I doubt that they wanted yet another religious observation in addition to their common gathering on the first day. I don't believe they had a 40-hour work week, frankly. What the Bible says is that:
"And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,
Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech
until midnight" (Acts 20:7 AV).
All the Ephesians assembled for worship on the first day of the week.
"Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come" (1 Cor. 16:2 AV)
The Corinthians habitually congregated on th first day of the week. I'll take this to be more authentic than your insistence that ONLY the seventh day was acceptable to The Holy Spirit as the day to worship through the Memorial. In fact, every day was a holy day in the Jerusalem Church, from the sense of Acts 2:46-47:
"And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread
from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church
daily such as should be saved.
Doubtless the habits of Jewish converts to Christianity were hard to break. Peter himself had a hard time with it, and Paul on one occasion had to spank him about it. The Judaizers were continually attempting to revive Jewish practices in the Gentile assemblies, and this problem tested the faithful counselors of the Jerusalem prototype church on the issue of how much of the law Gentile (or Christian Jews) should observe. For an answer, they only summed up what God had ever imposed on the Gentiles as absolutes:
"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles
are turned to God:
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols,
and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read
in the synagogues every sabbath day" (Acts 15:18-21 AV).
Did you get this? In every city, if a disciple wants to hear about the Law, let them go to the local synagogue. I assume that means that the Jews meet on a different day than we, the Christians, representing the risen Body of Christ, assemble on the day of His resurrection, which is also the day that He sent the Holy Spirit to cement us as His Church, and to preach to the unsaved. Gentile Christians do NOT meet on the Sabbath day.
You'd better read and digest the cut and pasted stuff before you wise off, I would say, so the same truth doesn't have to be reproduced by someone else because of the laziness of the casual commenter, who expects a studied reply.
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You cannot pretend that the issue was “dealt with.”]
To ignore the obvious is not dealing with anything.
The Day was “sanctified” (set apart).
That says it all. If you labor on that day, it is no longer set apart to you.
You will deal with it at the Great White Throne, when you gnash your teeth. Until then you simply disrespect Yehova and the day he blessed.
To assume that such information as was placed in the word has no application to human circumstance is a denial of the whole word.
To whom do you think the word was presented?
How do you suppose that Abel knew that a blood sacrifice was required? How did Noah know which animals were clean or unclean? You ignore the obvious constantly.
You are the most ignorant and arrogant of all who post here.
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Those gentiles were the lost (out of covenant) sheep of the House of Israel; all of them. Did you think that the apostles ministered to anyone but those to whom Yeshua said he was sent? Paul preached to Israel, and Peter mostly preached to Judah
>> “and their way of counting the day was different. They had no Sabbath” <<
Utterly false! - How would one have a “first day of the week,” and not also have a seventh day of the week? The first day of the week is not "Sunday," its from sundown at the Sabbath, until the next sundown
>> “And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight” <<
Did that one get by you too?
They came together at sundown, as the Sabbath ended, with the money that they were forbidden to carry on the Sabbath, to deliver it to the Lord's work (this tradition is mentioned in other letters). Paul preached until midnight.
>> “All the Ephesians assembled for worship on the first day of the week.” <<
Please tell us where the word tells us that? (it doesn't)
>> “Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come” <<
Did you miss that too? (”that there be no gatherings (of lucre) when I come”)
That there be no gatherings on the Sabbath!
>> “The Corinthians habitually congregated on the first day of the week.” <<
Balderdash! Where did you get that nonsense?
The Corinthians worshiped on the Sabbath like every believer did. The celebrated the feasts like every believer did.
1Co 5:8
“Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”
And when you quote from Acts 15, please quote the entirety. Acts 15 is where they instructed the new believers in what to do as they learned Torah: Avoid blood and meats offered to idols.
They also instructed that they hear Moses read in their synagogue “every Sabbath day.”
That was going to take them years to absorb, just as it did for the apostles when they learned from their parents.
The entirety of the Acts is descriptive of following Torah in every way.
You had better read and understand the Word of Yehova before posting further here. You are a most vexing dis-informer.
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Before I address your scriptures think about the lack of logic that this line of thinking calls into question.
These aren't your thoughts. You're merely parroting the same arguments that have been parroted by others before you and will be parroted after you.
This argument demands that we believe that sometime very soon AFTER the death of Christ the nascent Christian movement completely abandoned a scriptural commandment and a teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Jesus Christ himself acknowledged that the sabbath WAS VALID FOR MANKIND and that he THE LORD OF SABBATH.
Mar 2:27 And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."
These are the words of Christ. He affirms the sabbath AND affirms that he as the Lord created and endorses it.
Yet, according to the argument you parrot a wholesale movement emerged that completely contradicted the words and actions of Jesus AND the written commandments and instructions on the sabbath..including multiple reaffirmations in the ONLY scriptures they had. For example:
Isa_58:13 "If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,
Isa 58:14 Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the LORD has spoken."
So thousands of years of tradition coupled with multiple scriptural references and proofs coupled with the words, actions and practices of Jesus himself...disappeared without even a WHIMPER OF PROTEST.
Think about that. There is NOBODY taking anybody to task in the new testament for abandoning the sabbath of the Lord. Nobody is mad about it. Nobody is upset.
Contrast that to the issue of circumcision. Wow...that caused a HUGE stink in the pages of the new testament and it wasn't EVEN one of the ten commandments. Nt scripture is filled with controversy about circumcision. But NONE about sabbath abandonment.
What you're doing my friend is LOOKING at this through a lens of hundreds of years of TRADITION telling you that the sabbath is NOT relevant to Christians today. And instead of thinking for yourself and reading and understanding what's right in front of you you're listening to tradition.
Mull that over for a bit...
John 10:24-36
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
O'rly? Here he continues with another [futile, but gracious] attempt at correcting accusations from the usual suspects:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
As was then, so it is today. His stating that he is the son of God [and that he is one with his father] has been falsely taken as a claim of deity. No matter how many times Jesus attempted to correct the experts' misunderstandings, his words simply didn't register with the doubled-down-on-dogma Gotcha! crowd.
I realize that I am up against the Great Wall of Doctrine, but that's okay. I write for those who recognize the gaping holes and broad cracks.
Truly, the Messiah could attend church services year after year, and remain completely unrecognized. It's because of the illusionary impenetrable wall of 'unassailable' settled doctrines, that's why.
History (right out of the New Testament) is repeating in plain sight.
It's pretty amusing that you should think so. Just this is so false that I don't think I will even confute the rest of this twisting of the Scripture you engage in.
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Those gentiles were the lost (out of covenant) sheep of the House of Israel; all of them. Not so. Gentiles had nothing in common with Hebrew heritage. That starts way back with Shem, Ham, and Japheth. There was a continuous differentiation of Gentiles from Shemites all the way down to Jesus' time. Gentiles were referred to by Jews as "dogs" and would have nothing to do with them. That attitude still exists, especially amongst the Chassidim.
Did you think that the apostles ministered to anyone but those to whom Yeshua said he was sent?
Of course, the New Testament is filled with it. But early in Jesus' public ministry, He sent apostles out to Jews first, that they might have no excuse. Howerver He Himself made a trip all the way to Tyre for the single purpose to heal a Gentile woman's daughter. She was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation. Though His disciples took literally that He ought to ignore her, by faith in Him, the daughter was healed.
Paul preached to Israel, and Peter mostly preached to Judah
No. a dunce's appraisal. Jesus selected Paul to take the Gospel to the Gentiles.
"But the Lord(Jesus) said unto him(Ananias), Go thy way: for he(Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:" (Acts 9:15)
Paul followed the path set out for him, was discipled personally by the Lord Jesus in the desert, came to Jerusalem and was approved, then went back to his home, a cosmopolitan Roman/Greek/Jewish colony of Roman citizens, and studied there in the university to become a master of the Gentile philosophical culture. This prepared him for undertaking the ministry to the Gentiles:
""And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." (Gal. 2:9 AV).
This written after the fact of his missionary work among them, the part of Anatolia populated by the hordes from Gaul who came there as mercenaries.
This apportioning of evangelism came about because Paul, already a student under Gamaliel for the rabbinate, then chosen by Jesus for this ministry, then took matters in hand and prepared himself to converse even with Gentile nobility. But noble or not, these were HEATHEN whose God was not the God of the Bible.
Regarding Jew versus Gentile in God's New Testament, when Jesus gave up the ghost, the veil hiding the Holy of Holies was ripped open from top to bottom, and never repaired (Mt. 2:51). The middle wall of separation in the Temple was broken down, that faithful Gentiles would be counted the same as faithful Christian Jews:
"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall
of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father" (Eph. 2:14-18 AV)
Your knowledge and handling of the Bible is not what you claim, and it is not legitimate. Your arguments are phony and easily destroyed. ActuallY, your talking points here are neither Jewish in origin, nor Christian in apologetics. In this matter of Sabbaths I expected your arguments to turn up, and I foresee the likelihood of you making assertions for your Noachide theories, with a view toward hijacking this discussion.
Write what you want, as much as you want, as incoherent as this reply of yours is, but you'd better not start making things personal, or I will push it uphill.
Let all who witness the article that prefaced this thread as "the lie".
It is, and His words contradict you. Again:
Mat 28:19 AV: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
The Name, singular; not "The Names" plural. These three Persons are of one indivisible substance. The Name in Hebrew is Elohim, denoting a Plurality unified in One entity:
Gen 1:26a,b AV: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: . . ."
One Name, God, plurality of persons intercommunicating: "us" "our" talking with each other.
The Trinity in the Old Testament:
Isa 48:12,13,15,16:
"Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens:
when I call unto them, they stand up together.
I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make
his way prosperous.
Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Jehovah Jesus speaking here, to the House of Jacob/Israel, through Isaiah.
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Yes, Jesus is God in the flesh, fully human and fully God.
Satisfies me, as His subject.
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You fail in your first paragraph.
Jews are not the House of Israel.
You understand absolutely nothing of Yehova’s word, and make a fool of yourself with every post.
The apostles job was to bring the Gospel (Torah) to the House of Israel, and those that sojourn with them. They were the “gentiles.”
Judah was the “Circumcision.”
Capiche????
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The majority here do indeed embrace the “lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.”
“Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is Yehova.”
This has nothing to do with the general topic, and I’m not even going to answer this. Your attitude is offensive and your theory is so outlandish that it is not worthy of another thought.
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