Posted on 06/25/2017 2:15:14 PM PDT by D-fendr
Together we contend for the truth that politics, law, and culture must be secured by moral truth. With the Founders of the American experiment, we declare, “We hold these truths.” With them, we hold that this constitutional order is composed not just of rules and procedures but is most essentially a moral experiment. With them, we hold that only a virtuous people can be free and just, and that virtue is secured by religion. To propose that securing civil virtue is the purpose of religion is blasphemous. To deny that securing civil virtue is a benefit of religion is blindness.
(Excerpt) Read more at firstthings.com ...
"Americans are drifting away from, are often explicitly defying, the constituting truths of this experiment in ordered liberty. Influential sectors of the culture are laid waste by relativism, anti-intellectualism, and nihilism that deny the very idea of truth. Against such influences in both the elite and popular culture, we appeal to reason and religion in contending for the foundational truths of our constitutional order. "
I would LOVE to be able to co-operate with Catholics in spreading the Gospel.
But I think there may be irreconcilable differences.
We’ll see what the future holds, though. If this current hippie Pope is a harbinger of things to come, there may be two different organizations calling themselves catholic soon.
If Christians and Roman Catholics had the same understanding that would be nice.
But I agree with you...the differences are too vast.
The love of Christ compels us and we are therefore resolved to avoid such conflict between our communities and, where such conflict exists, to do what we can to reduce and eliminate it. Beyond that, we are called and we are therefore resolved to explore patterns of working and witnessing together in order to advance the one mission of Christ. Our common resolve is not based merely on a desire for harmony. We reject any appearance of harmony that is purchased at the price of truth. Our common resolve is made imperative by obedience to the truth of God revealed in the Word of God, the Holy Scriptures, and by trust in the promise of the Holy Spirit’s guidance until Our Lord returns in glory to judge the living and the dead.
The mission that we embrace together is the necessary consequence of the faith that we affirm together.
>>>I would LOVE to be able to co-operate with Catholics in spreading the Gospel.
What is holding us back?
Catholicism advances Christ +Mary+Tradition + works.
The two aren't compatible.
Let’s put aside for the moment a discussion of whether this is a true representation or, if it is, the argument for one or the other..
Why does this hold us back from co-operating in spreading the Gospel?
Phrased differently:
Differences aside, how can we co-operate in spreading the Gospel?
You remember ‘the Manhattan declaration?’ Search those threads on FR, I think 2009 or so. If it didn’t happen way back before ‘gay marriage’ was federally enforced then no way is it happening now.
Freegards
Jesus Christ is Lord. That is the first and final affirmation that Christians make about all of reality. He is the One sent by God to be Lord and Savior of all: “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4) Christians are people ahead of time, those who proclaim now what will one day be acknowledged by all, that Jesus Christ is Lord. (Philippians 2)What is holding us back from co-operating in spreading this Gospel?We affirm together that we are justified by grace through faith because of Christ. Living faith is active in love that is nothing less than the love of Christ, for we together say with Paul: “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2)
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Thanks for the reference.
I don’t see this binary do or don’t - or time-limited. As time goes on, in fact, I see our differences fade in the face of the cultural and political zeitgeist. And the need and importance increases, along with, hopefully, the likelihood of co-operation.
I sympathize. I hope for the future too. But my point is that even in the face of society obviously changing for the worse for Christians and Christian culture it just didn’t happen. I doubt there is going to be some sort of broad Christian alliance that makes a big enough difference to matter, at least to change the way things seem to be going for anyone living today.
Freegards
I think we both hope you’re wrong. :)
What’s the saying: Have you had enough pain to change? or is it ‘darkest before the dawn..?”
I think we both agree that, in the end, Christ wins; so, we’re ultimately optimists. I think we all will be together with Him in victory, eventually.
It’s a matter of when, IMHO, and how much suffering it will take for that unity in mission to occur. I think movements like this, and the one you referenced, help in small part. Not to be trite, but they can be seeds.
thanks much for your replies.
In my personal experience?
The fact that they refuse to do so unless I’m also Catholic.
And I’m not.
So I’m a filthy heretic.
Maybe other people have different experiences, but that was mine.
To share the Gospel and how one acquires salvation one has to be in agreement. Christianity and Roman Catholicism are not in agreement on this.
In short, because it is different Gospels. The Catholics on FR pushed me up that tree a long time ago.
We can and should do work on the “ground” level, but when one side says you are saved through Mary and the magistrum, and the other says you saved by faith, you have a mismatch.
See how offensive that sounds? See how unnecessarily offensive your posts sound to us? Where in the Bible are you authorized to insult people to spread your "Gospel"? Do you realize how much damage you do to your own position when you say stuff like that?
Scripture says to give a reason for the hope that lies within you, but to do so with "gentleness" and "reverence". Perhaps you should consider obeying that injunctive.
Catholics fundamentally understand salvation as unmerited adoption into God's family, a right which was purchased for us, because obviously nobody could purchase that sort of thing for themselves. That's the truth, in contrast to your caricature.
Many Protestants seem to understand salvation as "penal substitution," which amounts to the acquittal of a criminal based on someone else having "done the time". (Because I do not go around caricaturing someone else's beliefs, I welcome corrections from the Protestants in the audience.)
The penal substitution view is not false, but it is incomplete. If you commit a crime and the President pardons you, you don't get to move into the White House with him, he doesn't include you in his will, and he doesn't start to call you his "son" or "daughter".
God does all of those things, which is why salvation is much more than just a pardon.
See above.
True evangelicals won’t/can’t work together on religious issues. Not possible. When it comes to politics, it can happen.
Nope. I mean Christianity and Roman Catholicism are not in agreement on how one is saved...or even if one is even saved.
See how offensive that sounds? See how unnecessarily offensive your posts sound to us?
The truth often hurts but in nonetheless remains the truth. Mormons get upset when they are not called Christians for they aren't.
Where in the Bible are you authorized to insult people to spread your "Gospel"? Do you realize how much damage you do to your own position when you say stuff like that?
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! 10For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. Galatians 1:6-10 NASB
Catholics fundamentally understand salvation as unmerited adoption into God's family, a right which was purchased for us, because obviously nobody could purchase that sort of thing for themselves. That's the truth, in contrast to your caricature.
If Roman Catholics believe this then there is nothing the Roman Catholic can do to "earn" salvation. With what would you buy your salvation? What human work is somehow sufficient to attain salvation?
If there is nothing you can do to purchase your salvation then there is nothing you can do to earn or keep your salvation.
Roman Catholicism believes the salvation they did not purchase can be taken away or lost based on their efforts.
Ephesians 1:13-14 tells us the believer in Christ is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. There are no passages saying the believer is ever unsealed.
Many Protestants seem to understand salvation as "penal substitution," which amounts to the acquittal of a criminal based on someone else having "done the time". (Because I do not go around caricaturing someone else's beliefs, I welcome corrections from the Protestants in the audience.)
Christ's death on the Cross was a substitute for us. He paid the price for our sins. There is nothing we can do to atone for our sins other than believe Him at His promises of eternal life for those who believe in Him.
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 NASB
16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 1 Corinthians 5:16-21 NASB
Roman Catholics do not hold to the view that His death cleanses us from ALL sins. The very notion of purgatory where we have to to get "cleaned up" shows this.
Further, the Roman Catholic believes, at least a good many do, the claims of the apparitions claiming to be Mary.
One of these false promises is that by wearing a piece of cloth you avoid the hell fire.
This shows a complete lack of faith in the promises of Jesus Christ.
The same can be said for those who believe the false promises made by the apparition to Saint Dominic regarding the Rosary among these are:
5)The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.
9) I shall deliver from Purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
11) You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary.
You may not believe that but a whole lot of Roman Catholics do.
If you don't believe the promises or in wearing the scapular would you publicly denounce those as false teachings?
The penal substitution view is not false, but it is incomplete. If you commit a crime and the President pardons you, you don't get to move into the White House with him, he doesn't include you in his will, and he doesn't start to call you his "son" or "daughter".
But that is exactly what happens to the believer in Christ.
They are adopted into His family.
. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. Romans 8:23-25 NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, Ephesians 1:3-5 NASB
1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4“And you know the way where I am going.” 5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
John 14:1-6 NASB
Will you trust Him, and only Him, at His word and become a follower of Christ?
I think we agree that salvation is by the grace of God. Some other disagreements, but not to many when you clear away the misunderstandings due to definition of terms.
We can, hopefully, agree that all are seeking truth.
thanks for your reply.
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