Posted on 06/10/2017 8:12:43 AM PDT by ealgeone
What have Catholics done to Prots in the past?
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Probably not related to what you were saying.
But the only thing I’m thinking of right now as I read that is the Massacre of St. Bartholomew’s Eve.
How about POSTING the passage in Luke?
Not everyone has the entire Bible memorized by reference.
It's not that hard to do and is a courtesy for everyone involved.
You are correct that that passage only proves possession.
Thanks for conceding that point.
However this one:
“And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.”
Rev 8:4
clearly shows the prayers in possession of the angels (incense) and saints (odours) then go up to God.
They may or may not be aware of what the prayers are, but they do offer them to God for us.
This is exactly what praying to saints for their intercession is. We give our prayers to them to pass along to God.
Is it necessary? No. No one is required to pray to saints.
Is it permitted? Yes, clearly from this scripture.
Love,
O2
They were both dead in the spiritual realm.
The man in Hades was NOT alive on the earth.
That does NOT say that the prayers were prayed to the elders to pass on to God.
That is grasping at one passage of Scripture to try to support a doctrine or practice that has absolutely no other Scriptural support.M
The question remains> WHY pray to the saint, angels, and Mary?
Do you not think that God Himself will answer the prayers you pray to HIM?
Do you think that any saints, angels, or Mary would get God to change His mind or get something for you that God Himself wouldn't give you Himself?
Would they act contrary to the will of God?
If you're praying to anyone other than God I have to ask are you truly a follower of Christ.
If y'all claim to obey them, then why don't you pray as He commanded us to pray?
Luke 11:1-13 Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” And he said to them, “When you pray, say:
“Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.”
And he said to them, “Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves, for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; and he will answer from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything’? I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs.
And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Perhaps you could show us from Scripture where Jesus commanded us to pray to *saints* or Mary.
Also, Here Jesus PROMISED that our prayers would get answered by GOD HIMSELF.
Do you believe this?
Is it permitted?
No example of Jesus or the Apostles praying to anyone but God. We are to pray to God and God alone. That much is clear.
You are evading the question.
I do not believe, based on my reading of scripture, that what I do is a sin, so I am not intentionally sinning.
I am unquestionably a follower of Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and my only Lord and Savior.
If I unintentionally sin, do I lose my salvation?
Again,
A yes or no question.
Love,
O2
To be a follower of Christ means to follow His example. Do you do that? Did He pray to anyone but God? Did He accept the Church leaders doctrines which were in contradiction with Scripture?
Nope. Question was answered. With all due respect, based on our prior conversations on this, and other threads, the answer remains.
I do not believe, based on my reading of scripture, that what I do is a sin, so I am not intentionally sinning.
I am unquestionably a follower of Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and my only Lord and Savior.
If I unintentionally sin, do I lose my salvation?
A Christian does not lose their salvation.
See my reply above on this post.
‘Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.’
I seem to remember a certain king (Saul) who tried to get a dead prophet of the Lord (Samuel) to help him out and it didn't go so well for him, to say the least. That prophet would have been in Abraham's Bosom/Paradise the same as Lazarus, right?
So what’s the point of all the *If I do __________, can I lose my salvation?* questions?
Are you looking for permission or justification to go ahead and sin and still be saved?
When I pray, I enter into the presence of God.
A God who is greater than I can possibly understand.
Yet a God who is close to me;
Closer to me than I am to myself.
A God who loves me.
Do you pray any other way than the Our Father? If so, then you are also not obeying Jesus, because that is the only way He taught us to pray.
I am not commanded to pray to anyone else, but it is permitted based on my interpretation of scripture.
All of my prayers end up with God regardless of how I direct them. I like to put some of them into the hands of the saints and angels as described in scripture. I do not believe it is a sin. It is always God who answers my prayers, either directly or through whatever power He allows the saints, just as people on earth were healed by the apostles because of the power granted to them by God.
You have already said that you believe I will lose my salvation if I sin, even unintentionally, even though I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior long before I ever prayed to a saint.
How can I gain my salvation back? Must I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior again? I have never renounced that. Must all sinners do something to gain their salvation back once they have lost it by sin?
Love,
O2
“Who told you to do that?”
My interpretation of Revelation combined with Mary’s intervention at Cana and God’s command that we pray for each other.
These tell me that God will listen to someone else’s requests on my behalf. Since I believe that saved souls are with God, I believe they can intervene for us even better than other humans still on earth are able to.
You may not interpret the scripture the same way, so I don’t expect you to act in a way you don’t feel is justified, but you have no standing to discount my interpretation or to expect me to stop doing what I believe is right based on yours.
Do you ever pray in any way other than the Lord’s Prayer? If so, who told you to do that?
Love,
O2
So since I am a Christian who has accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, then you agree that I cannot lose my salvation, even if I become an idolator or commit any other sin.
Neither can any true Catholic, since to be a Catholic one must first and foremost accept Jesus Christ as their only Lord and Savior. Anyone who does not do this is not a Catholic.
Thanks for the reassurance, and now you can stop worrying about Catholics who are devoted to Mary, since it will have no effect on their salvation.
Love,
O2
If, as you claim, you are a follower of Christ, will you throw away your rosary? Your scapular and/or miraculous medal if you have them?
Will you not recite the Hail Mary?
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