Posted on 06/10/2017 8:12:43 AM PDT by ealgeone
Therein lies the difference. We welcome the opportunity to share our beliefs but they get angry, profane or mocking ("you funny"). If I am challenged to defend then I am motivated to going back to Scripture and read more on the subject. And this I do not mind at all. They frequently cite some lengthy article which is full of inaccuracies and long on speculation and misapplication of verses and short on reasoning. At least they should tell me why THEY BELIEVE something rather than resort to a "here read this wordy document until your eyes glaze over".
I do not ignore what Paul taught ... I've been teaching it for decades in fact. What your religious org has done is take that sentence 'work out your won salvation in fear and trembling' to mean fits the great deceit of catholiciism, that you must keep your salvation by works. Paul taught a much different meaning in so many of his letters, yet you have chosen to ignore that teaching in order to mischaracterize what he said and thus empower your wroks based religion.
A dead spirit is unable to discern the spiritual things, as you keep exhibiting with your posts. These do work as an excellent object lesson, and that's why I keep responding to your specious assertions.
Pure nonsense, as expected.
“A dead spirit is unable to discern the spiritual things”
Is the act of “discerning the spiritual things” itself a “work”?
Secret code ring required:
Sometimes I wonder from what planet these Catholic failures have matriculated!
Wow!
'In that day some will say "Lord, did we not work work work?" And He will say to them, "Depart from me for I never knew you." '
The dead man in Hades asked men in heaven for help.
Then, in Revelation 6: 9-11, the “dead” ask God to help the living.
Why are you chastising Catholics to do something, if we don’t need to do anything?
The only one praying in this allegory (meaning it is probably not based on a factual event but a story with a moral) is the rich man in Hades NOT Heaven.
(1)And he is praying for himself First.
(2)then directs his prayer for his 5 remaining brothers
(3) and then his prayer is NOT ANSWERED.
How do you get "who are alive in heaven) praying for us" out of all that???
Your translations are a bit off. Abraham and the rich man were separated by a great gulf ... and Jesus emptied the Abraham side when He arose from the dead. The scene Jesus related happened not in Heaven. Try again, you fail.
You're not very up on all this are you!
You remain clueless because of the status of your human spirit. If you are trusting in your striving, you are not trusting the Grace of God.
Let's get the main point of this story. Jesus is addressing His disciples and the Pharisees.
This is about Jesus and the necessity of believing in Him for eternal life as seen in v31. “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 19:31 NASB
The request was made by a person who was already dead from an earthly perspective to another person who was already dead from an earthly perspective.
This is not praying for the dead as the Roman Catholic tries to understand this.
If anything it would be the reverse...the dead making a request for the living.
But in either case there is no communication between individuals who've left this world or those who remain on this earth.
Yet the indication is both are alive for eternity...one in Heaven...the other in Hell. He could not be "cleaned up" so he could enter Heaven.
The rich man was consigned to Hell forever. There was no chance of redeeming his soul. He could not be prayed out of Hell.
The request was a specific one...for Abraham to send someone to his family to warn them. The request was rejected.
Why?
The rich man's family already had what they needed to know how to have eternal life...they had Moses and the Prophets.
"Let them hear" is what Abraham told the rich man.
The rich man made a further request to send someone from the dead.
Abraham told him no....if they wouldn't listen to Moses and the Prophets they would not listen to anyone even if they rose from the dead.
Jesus was directing this story to the Pharisees who were denying Him.
He was telling them they had everything they needed in the OT to understand eternal life.
Today, people who are alive on earth have everything we need to understand how to have eternal life.
God has given us His word so we can read and understand how to have eternal life.
If someone rejects Jesus as their Savior; they will be like the rich man. Consigned to Hell forever with no second chances of Heaven.
Those who have professed faith in Jesus will have eternal life as He has promised in numerous places in the NT.
This lines up with Hebrews 9:26-28 NASB
26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
I hope this helps. Freepmail me if you have any questions.
most sincerely,
ealgeone
**I knew this would end up as a Protestant v. Catholic thread.**
And, without a caucus label, it didn’t take a prophet to predict that either.
Excerpt from the gotquestionsnotalwaysrightanswers dude’s commentary: **Equally important is whom we are not to pray to. Some non-Christian religions encourage their adherents to pray to a pantheon of gods, dead relatives, saints, and spirits. Roman Catholics are taught to pray to Mary and various saints. Such prayers are not scriptural and are, in fact, an insult to our heavenly Father.**
While he is certainly right about that, he’s just about as confused on the Godhead as the RCs. And he doesn’t seem to really grasp the power of the name of Jesus.
“I didn’t say that, did I !!! I said there is no evidence of any Catholic Saints in heaven...”
So you agree that there is evidence that there are saints in heaven?
The events in Revelation are set when there are men in heaven and on earth and under the earth. This could be at any time before the end of the world. To say otherwise is to add something to scripture which is not there.
“There are talking donkeys based in scripture as well...You don’t have one of those, do you???”
That I do not have a talking donkey has no bearing on whether or not God has ever made a donkey talk or the timing of Revelation. Straw man distraction from the actual point.
“Private interpretation isn’t involved...It is believing scripture and then comparing scripture with scripture and rightly dividing the word of truth that leads to truth...”
So you believe that personal interpretation of the scripture is wrong? That when you read and understand scripture none of your God-given intellect is involved?
I have explained over and over that I do not worship Mary or any other saint. I do not pray to their dead bodies, I pray to their living souls as a means of communication, not worship. I know that they are not God. I ask them to intervene for me with God in whatever way God allows them to. If they do not hear me, I know God hears me either way, so no matter what, the prayers end up with God, just like in Revelation.
You may disagree with my actions, but you do not get to tell me that I am doing something I am not.
Do you know that bearing false witness is also a sin according to the 10 commandments. Is constantly accusing me of a sin which I do not commit not bearing false witness?
Also, you did not address the question about this. I sincerely believe that the bible shows that it is OK to pray to living souls in heaven based on the scripture I cited. I believe that I am guided by the Holy Spirit in this.
You will never convince me that this action is sinful because I believe the Holy Spirit and scripture over you.
So...
If I sin unintentionally based on my sincere beliefs based on the bible and guided by the Holy Spirit, am I still culpable? Is unintentional sin still sin? If I am guilty of the sin of idolatry without intending it, are you guilty of the sin of bearing false witness without intending it?
And...
Since regardless of your interpretation of my actions and intentions, I only believe in Jesus as my Lord and Savior and have for as long as I can remember, will this unintentional sin cause me to lose my salvation?
Love,
O2
“and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:” rev 5:8
That IS scripture where it is clear that our prayers are in the possession of ancients and angels in heaven and are sent to God by them.
You may not think this important scripture, or enough proof to believe it yourself, but you cannot truthfully say there is NO scripture showing our prayers going to God through saints and angels.
“Wrong is wrong and God does not offer excuses for disobeying something He clearly commanded us to do. If you are interpreting it wrong, that’s on you.”
So what are the consequences of my unintentional sin?
I accepted Jesus as my only Lord and Savior long, long ago. I do not believe my actions constitute worshipping anyone else and I believe I am doing God’s will. Will this sin cause me to lose my salvation?
If you are unintentionally sinning, will you lose yours?
Love,
O2
So can I lose my salvation by praying to Mary and other saints for their intercession with God?
That’s the main question.
I am saved. I believe in Jesus as my only Lord and Savior.
I do not intentionally sin. I believe that praying to living saints (and angels) in heaven is permitted based on Revelation 5:8, so I do it often. I don’t believe they are God, but that they can intervene with God for me.
Have I lost my salvation?
That’s a yes or no question.
Love,
O2
Yes we can. Possession does not prove they went throughAnybody but God. God saved (archived) those prayers. We may be able to read them throughout eternity. Who knows? But it does NOT prove it went through any person or angel or that they are sent to God by them. Possession just proves possession. That's all.
We can argue as to who the saints are in particular, but they are called ‘the ancients’, who, unless there is a new type of being that is neither angel nor man, are men who are in heaven, which is the current use of the word ‘saint’.
Again this is happening at a time when there are men in heaven, men on earth, and men under the earth. Other than that we do not know when it happens. I do not insist that you must accept my interpretation that it is occurring now, but you have no right to insist that I believe otherwise.
To dismiss this as being during the tribulation puts something in the bible that is not there and limits the interpretation to something that agrees with what you want it to mean.
Also, during the tribulation will it be OK to pray to saints in heaven?
Love,
O2
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