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Is eternal security a "license" to sin?
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Posted on 06/08/2017 5:24:08 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: SpirituTuo
The apostle John seems to have understood the difference.
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
There are those who practice sinning. And there are those who practice righteousness. Those who practice righteousness fall into sin. Those who practice sinning are lawless.
I'm not sure how many times John has to state this. This isn't Revelation. But I understand your confusion as long as you believe in "free will". Under your soteriology you will never understand this passage along with many others. Under "free will" everyone is free to practice whatever they choose. This is heresy (not to mention totally confusing doctrine).
81
posted on
06/11/2017 1:12:07 PM PDT
by
HarleyD
To: HarleyD
Thank you for posting that. I now understand what you mean.
An example would be a Muslim, serial adulterer, becomes Christian. They see and understand just how bad adultery is, and in conformity to God’s law, stops committing adultery. He may still look on women sinfully, from time to time, but has stopped the practice of adultery.
Fortunately, he exercised his free will, and stopped the practice out of love of God. He refrained from habitual behavior because he developed an understanding, and love for God he didn’t have before. Not that he isn’t tempted, just that he chooses not to engage in the temptation.
To: HarleyD
It’s all one classification: sinning. But the Lord speaks to us about where sin begins, in the heart. As your post shows and many other verses of God’s word.
83
posted on
06/11/2017 2:51:12 PM PDT
by
reasonisfaith
("...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians))
To: ealgeone
Thank you.
that clarifies it a LOT.
84
posted on
06/11/2017 4:19:35 PM PDT
by
metmom
( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
To: SpirituTuo
However, I can reject the gift of salvation by refusing to obey Gods laws, and by refusing His commands. You reject salvation by rejecting Christ, not the Law.
No, I have to believe and acknowledge Jesus as my Lord, by my own submission.
True.
I also have to love my neighbor as my self, as well providing for those in physical and spiritual need.
No, you do not have to do any of those things but as you mature in Christ you will find yourself doing those things.
But they are not necessary, not requirements for salvation.
85
posted on
06/11/2017 4:28:25 PM PDT
by
metmom
( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
To: SpirituTuo
She is worthy of forgiveness, but also needs to amend her life. Nobody is worthy of forgiveness.
That's the whole point of forgiving and grace.
If someone is worthy of it, then what is given to them is wages due for work performed.
86
posted on
06/11/2017 6:04:21 PM PDT
by
metmom
( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
To: Zeneta
Am I still worthy of Christs redemption if I knowingly sin? NOBODY IS WORTHY OF FORGIVENESS!!!!!
Or grace, or salvation, or anything.
Salvation is a GIFT. God gives it to us freely for the asking but we have to ask and receive it, accept it for ourselves.
Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
87
posted on
06/11/2017 6:09:56 PM PDT
by
metmom
( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
To: SpirituTuo
Fortunately, he exercised his free will, and stopped the practice out of love of God. He refrained from habitual behavior because he developed an understanding, and love for God he didnt have before. An unbeliever cannot stop sinning unless God so wills it. This comes directly out of the Catholic Council of Orange:
CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1). CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).
CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him "unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3).
CANON 23. Concerning the will of God and of man. Men do their own will and not the will of God when they do what displeases him; but when they follow their own will and comply with the will of God, however willingly they do so, yet it is his will by which what they will is both prepared and instructed.
Council of Orange
And if you would like a scripture verse then please note the following which states the same thing:
Joh 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
We are born again 1) not by physical heritage, 2) not by any action we can take, 3) and certainly not because we will it because we come to some understanding. We are born of God by His grace and His alone.
In your example, if a Muslim were to become a Christian, it is only because God has so enlightened His heart and brought him to the point where he will repent. It isn't because of something he's done by his "will". As Canon 23 states, man does their own will-not God's will. God changes the heart to comply with His will.
Any other view is not the true faith according to the Council of Orange. I happen to agree with their analysis.
88
posted on
06/11/2017 6:56:43 PM PDT
by
HarleyD
To: reasonisfaith
Sin is sin. As Christians make too light of it in my opinion (including myself). If there was "free will" personally that would be wonderful for then I could choose not to sin ever again. But that isn't the case. Though we're Christians we fail and sin. Like David, we learn from our sinful behavior although it might cause us problems. It is like Paul stated:
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
89
posted on
06/11/2017 7:04:55 PM PDT
by
HarleyD
To: HarleyD
I need some time to read up on the Council, as it was in 529. It had to do with Augustine vs Pelagius.
To: HarleyD
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 2:3-5
91
posted on
06/11/2017 7:58:26 PM PDT
by
reasonisfaith
("...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians))
To: HarleyD; Zeneta; SpirituTuo
Be ready for the Lord. If you’re sinning when he returns, what do you think will come of it? Let’s see what the God’s word says:
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:1-8
92
posted on
06/11/2017 8:03:39 PM PDT
by
reasonisfaith
("...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians))
To: HarleyD; Zeneta; SpirituTuo; All
I would think its reasonable to say we do have free will. What makes it so slippery is our will is divided into two warring factions, flesh and spirit.
What motivates me to post on threads like this one is to help anyone who might be tempted to sin because of deceptive spirits telling them “don’t worry, all Christians sin.”
You all and others here have posted good comments and for this I thank you.
93
posted on
06/11/2017 8:39:41 PM PDT
by
reasonisfaith
("...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians))
To: Secret Agent Man; Chode; ravenwolf; thecodont
Be ready for the Lord. If youre sinning when he returns, what do you think will come of it? Please see post #92.
94
posted on
06/11/2017 8:43:30 PM PDT
by
reasonisfaith
("...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians))
To: reasonisfaith
What motivates me to post on threads like this one is to help anyone ... That is a mark of a true believer.
95
posted on
06/12/2017 3:53:12 AM PDT
by
HarleyD
To: nonsporting
There is no support in the scriptures for salvation with dead faith.
That is a very unusual teaching and not in keeping with the Westminster Confession of Faith (11.2) for example, which is supposed to be the accepted expression of Calvinism. Which faith community did you obtain that from ?
Works justify no man before God.
Justification is by faith and faith without works is dead.
Notice the emphasis on works, deeds, working, obeying in this passage. Let it seep into the soul.
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Romans, Catholic chapter two, Protestant verses one to sixteen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
96
posted on
06/12/2017 4:51:54 AM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
To: nonsporting
Adding in the dropped quote:
"Even "dead" faith (faith without works) can save."
There is no support in the scriptures for salvation with dead faith.
That is a very unusual teaching and not in keeping with the Westminster Confession of Faith (11.2) for example, which is supposed to be the accepted expression of Calvinism. Which faith community did you obtain that from ?
Works justify no man before God.
Justification is by faith and faith without works is dead.
Notice the emphasis on works, deeds, working, obeying in this passage. Let it seep into the soul.
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Romans, Catholic chapter two, Protestant verses one to sixteen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
97
posted on
06/12/2017 5:11:05 AM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
To: reasonisfaith
Do you think it’s possible to not be sinning when the Lord comes?
If you think that you can go without sinning, then you must sleep a LOT!
98
posted on
06/14/2017 1:22:18 AM PDT
by
metmom
( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
To: metmom
I think it’s possible in any given moment to be in a conscious state of having turned from your sins.
99
posted on
06/14/2017 1:17:54 PM PDT
by
reasonisfaith
("...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians))
To: ealgeone
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
100
posted on
06/14/2017 1:23:24 PM PDT
by
DungeonMaster
(How many ways do liberals hate the bible?)
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