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To: ealgeone
The NT fulfills the OT: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law and the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17) "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31) "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. . ." (2 Timothy 3:16)"--the "Scripture" referred to here is the OT, since the NT was still in the process of being written. For most of the first century, "Scripture" for Christians meant the Septuagint translation of the OT. The NT writers frequently invoked the OT to draw lessons for Christians. There is nothing un-Christian about applying Deuteronomy 6:8-9 by using accessories to remind us of what Scripture teaches and of our commitment to live out what it teaches.

I did not say Paul was talking about a physical shield. But what we do physically affects what we do internally, and a physical reminder can serve as an effective way to reinforce our internal disposition to be faithful to Christ, just as flash cards can help us memorize Scriptures.

I did not take Isaiah out of context. I mentioned that Paul alludes to it, which is noted by most annotated Bibles as well. And I do not think Paul was taking it out of context. He was familiar with some ancient exegetical and hermeneutical principles which are unfamiliar to most Bible readers today, though.

Regarding the apparition that made the promises about the brown scapular, the historical context is that this was spoken to a Carmelite monk who was already familiar with the qualifying disclaimers I mentioned. The wording of the promises is meant to be interpreted in the context of how the Carmelites defined these terms, not how 21st-century readers define them upon casual reading. Moreover, this type of apparatition has to be approved by Church authorities for its message to be authorized for Catholics, and during this approval process, such qualifications are factored in before approval. No informed Catholic theologian thinks that merely wearing the scapular will save you from hellfire, and wearing it with this attitude without regard for one's interior spiritual state and corresponding external actions will not convey any benefits. As St. Louis de Montford--one of the leading Catholic theologians on Marian devotions--wrote, "Presumptuous devotees are sinners who give full rein to their passions or their love of the world, and who, under the fair name of Christian and servant of our Lady, conceal pride, avarice, lust, drunkenness, anger, swearing, slandering, injustice and other vices. They sleep peacefully in their wicked habits, without making any great effort to correct them, believing that their devotion to our Lady gives them this sort of liberty. They convince themselves that God will forgive them, that they will not die without confession, that they will not be lost for all eternity. They take all this for granted because they say the Rosary, fast on Saturdays, are enrolled in the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary or the Scapular, or a sodality of our Lady, wear the medal or the little chain of our Lady. . .Nothing in our Christian religion is so deserving of condemnation as this diabolical presumption."

Priests offering sacrifice at Mass is indicated in the Gospels, 1 Corinthians, Hebrews, 1 Peter, and Revelation; as well as the earliest post-NT descriptions of Christian worship we have, notably Justin Martyr's description from the mid-2nd century; and early Christian architecture, where altars are ubiquitous. For a more detailed discussion, I recommend Thomas J. Nash, Worthy is the Lamb: The Biblical Roots of the Mass and the work of Steve Ray.

461 posted on 05/04/2017 1:53:01 PM PDT by Fedora
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To: Fedora
The NT fulfills the OT: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law and the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17) "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31) "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. . ." (2 Timothy 3:16)"--the "Scripture" referred to here is the OT, since the NT was still in the process of being written. For most of the first century, "Scripture" for Christians meant the Septuagint translation of the OT. The NT writers frequently invoked the OT to draw lessons for Christians. There is nothing un-Christian about applying Deuteronomy 6:8-9 by using accessories to remind us of what Scripture teaches and of our commitment to live out what it teaches.

If you want to carry around Scripture there's no problem with that.

However, the apparition made a specific promise to those who wear the brown scapular.(I forgot there's a green one also plus a medal Catholics can wear).

While reading Deuteronomy is highly recommended, the attempt to justify the promise of the apparition regarding the Scapular with Deuteronomy 6:8 fails.

The apparition made a specific promise based on wearing the scapular.

It is a reach to draw that it's "OK" to do so from Deuteronomy when no promise is made in the passage in question.

This is not the first false promise from the apparition claiming to be Mary. The apparition at Fatima made a number of false promises also.

I did not say Paul was talking about a physical shield. But what we do physically affects what we do internally, and a physical reminder can serve as an effective way to reinforce our internal disposition to be faithful to Christ, just as flash cards can help us memorize Scriptures.

Again, the promise by the apparition is not a "reminder".

“WHOSOEVER DIES IN THIS GARMENT SHALL NOT SUFFER ETERNAL FIRE.”

That's pretty clear. It's not some "little reminder".

Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel

I did not take Isaiah out of context. I mentioned that Paul alludes to it, which is noted by most annotated Bibles as well. And I do not think Paul was taking it out of context. He was familiar with some ancient exegetical and hermeneutical principles which are unfamiliar to most Bible readers today, though.

The scapular was called a "shield" centuries before the brown scapular was introduced, with reference to the "shield of faith" Paul mentions in Ephesians, a passage in turn referencing OT passages such as Isaiah 59:16-19.

Your post gives the impression you are attempting to link these together...that is justifying the Scapular with Isaiah and Ephesians.

Regarding the apparition that made the promises about the brown scapular, the historical context is that this was spoken to a Carmelite monk who was already familiar with the qualifying disclaimers I mentioned.

However, the apparition made a specific promise which was clearly understood by the monk.

The wording of the promises is meant to be interpreted in the context of how the Carmelites defined these terms, not how 21st-century readers define them upon casual reading.

Yet the apparition does not offer such a disclaimer.Apparently many Roman Catholics today believe the promise of the apparition.

Moreover, this type of apparition has to be approved by Church authorities for its message to be authorized for Catholics, and during this approval process, such qualifications are factored in before approval. No informed Catholic theologian thinks that merely wearing the scapular will save you from hellfire, and wearing it with this attitude without regard for one's interior spiritual state and corresponding external actions will not convey any benefits.

“One day through the Rosary and the Scapular I will save the World,” the Blessed Virgin Mary told Saint Dominic. Our Lady of Fatima during the Miracle of the Sun on October 13, 1917, held out the Brown Scapular. She wants us all to wear it always and to pray at least five decades of the Most Holy Rosary each day. Every Pope since the year 1280 A.D. has worn the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel.

http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/pdf/brown_scapular.pdf

This is how fatima.org portrays the Scapular.

Still, you can hardly avoid every venial sin, no matter how hard you try. And if you’re smart, your purgatory can be shortened almost to nothing. All you have to do is get yourself a ticket marked, “Shortcut to Heaven”.http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/pdf/brown_scapular.pdf

Those placing their faith in a piece of cloth have clearly rejected the promise of Christ in John 5:24:

24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 NASB


463 posted on 05/04/2017 4:57:19 PM PDT by ealgeone
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