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To: daniel1212
[My original:]So you think that when a man gets on one knee to propose to a woman, he’s worshipping her?

[Your reply:]What kind of perverse analogy is that to kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them?

If you did that to a woman then yes, I would think you were worshiping her, like as devotees of the "dear Leader" in North Korea do.

I note that you had to add a series of additional qualifiers to kneeling in order to avoid the point that kneeling is not always worship. The point stands, since the qualifiers can be addressed. "Praise" is not worship. The Psalmist frequently praises God's creations, not as a way of worshipping them, but as a way of praising their Creator, which is what Catholics do when we praise Mary--for as Paul says, woman is the glory of man, and man is the image and the glory of God (1 Corinthians 11:7, with Mary contrasted with Eve down in verse 12). None of her titles address her as "Creator of the universe" or anything of the sort, contrary to the argument being made in this and other posts in the thread. All of her titles are meant to indicate her close relationship with her Son and to hold her up as a role model for how to imitate her Son, but she is never placed above her Son, and a review of her titles will demonstrate this (a long task I will not attempt in this post, but I will come back to it). As for her ability to hear an infinite number of prayers, this is not surprising since God has this ability and his grace is sufficient to bestow it on another, and she is the "one full of grace" (Luke 1:28)--a title Gabriel gave her, demonstrating that honoring her with titles is Biblical.

452 posted on 05/03/2017 10:45:33 PM PDT by Fedora
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To: Fedora
I note that you had to add a series of additional qualifiers to kneeling in order to avoid the point that kneeling is not always worship.

"Had to add?" I had to add nothing , since I NEVER claimed that kneeling always denoted worship, but it is You who had to take away the qualifiers which describe what Catholics give to Mary and which correspond to worship! That is what you responded to by reducing the issue down to only kneeling.

The Psalmist frequently praises God's creations,

Sophistry. None one ever gives to any creation the depth of adulation and supernatural attributes which Catholics laud their Mary with. Once again your must craftily resort to minimization.

None of her titles address her as "Creator of the universe"

And what does this avail you? People can worship Obama without making him the creator. No created being is ever said to be the sinless dispenser or all grace, so that "the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse." and whose power now "is all but unlimited," and who can hear all prayers addressed to her, and who has "authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven," including "assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels," and that “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus," and whose [Mary] merits we are saved by, who "had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin," and who (obviously) cannot "be honored to excess," etc.

All of her titles are meant to indicate her close relationship with her Son and to hold her up as a role model for how to imitate her Son,

Come on. By ascribing such attributes and glory to Mary which are nowhere given her or to any created being then you are making here into a demigoddess, not a Biblical role model.

As for her ability to hear an infinite number of prayers, this is not surprising since God has this ability and his grace is sufficient to bestow it on another,

You do realize what you have just done don't you? Faced with an attribute only God is shown having and not any created being, your resort to rationalizing that it is fine to say Mary has that power since God can give it to her, but what God can do is no basis for claiming. You might as well teach that she parted the Red Sea and multitude other fantasies!

she is the "one full of grace" (Luke 1:28)--a title Gabriel gave her, demonstrating that honoring her with titles is Biblical.

Once again we see the art of Catholic extrapolation, attempting to use a Biblical principal to justify what they wring out of it. Sure God honors persons of virtue, which Mary was, but which simply does not justify the manner of adulation given to Mary, which is indeed far "above that which is written" (which is not of obscure meaning). Meanwhile, Mary is not said to be "full" of grace as is said of Christ, and is not a formal title.

457 posted on 05/04/2017 5:33:41 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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