Thank you for clarifying where you were disagreeing with me. But where does Scripture say this is an issue? If asking assistance from created beings is an issue, why does Paul urge Timothy that requests, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving be made for everyone?--was not Timothy a created being? I don't see how being alive or dead changes one's status as a created being.
Sure. They are in Heaven, and simply ask God, not anyone else, when judgment will come.
Why would they ask God this if they weren't already aware of what was going on on earth and concerned about it? How did they become aware of it? And no, I'm not being careless or desperate, I'm trying to get people to read the text and think through the issues more closely.
"Why?" For the same reason we can invoke the Jews by whom we have out OT texts and yet reject their conclusions on them. Because it is one thing to pass on copies of Scripture, and it is another to not be consistent with it. And have a vast multiplicity of Biblical mss testifying against fabrication.
And as Scripture is the only substantive body of Truth that is wholly inspired of God then that must be the standard, as it became as it was written.
Moreover, Rome judges the so-called early church fathers more than they judge here, and does not concur with all they wrote, nor are they in 100% concord with each others.
Nobody has pointed out any inconsistencies between Catholicism and Scripture so far in the posts I've read. Quite the opposite, it was conceded earlier that there is no Scriptural prohibition against asking the faithful departed to pray for us. The arguments have been over how to interpet what Scripture says, not over any specific prohibition. And here you are conceding that we are dependent on the Church Fathers for our NT manuscripts and our knowledge of the 1st century. I agree that the Church Fathers don't have the 100% accuracy of Scripture, but the point is, you don't even have Scripture without them, so Sola Scriptura isn't a consistent position.
Another fallacy. A evangelical preacher can also enjoin obedience to his oral preaching, under the premise that it is Scriptural, and the Holy Spirit commends thoser lovers of Truth who subjected his preaching to testing by Scripture.
However, Paul also could preach as wholly inspired of God, and also could provide new revelation, neither of which even Rome claims to do. Thus obedience to Paul is not the same things as obedience to Rome.
In addition, Paul's "traditions" were that of known contemporary preaching, not anything like requiring belief in an even over 1700 years after it allegedly occurred, and which was/us so lacking in early testimony (where it ought to be found) that Rome's own scholars were against it being made binding belief.
Furthermore, the evidence that anything called the "word of God/the Lord" was normally written down, and Rome cannot tell us what they traditions were that Paul referred to, while it is because of Scripture that we know he did.
The traditions Paul was referring to were written down by the post-NT writers. Some were recorded even within the NT, as with the early Christian creeds Paul occasionally quotes. I do agree that we must test traditions against Scripture and that Rome is not free to make up new revelations which do not have early and widespread historical attestation.
And to civil authorities as well, but which in both cases is always conditional upon absence of real conflict with Scripture.
We agree on this.
Extrapolating Purgatory out of "purgatorial fire" is also desperate, as it does not teach. Go ahead and try if you want.
Okay, I'll cite two verses in the NT. What does Paul mean by "one escaping through the flames" on the day of judgement in 1 Corinthians 3:15? And who are the "spirits of righteous men made perfect" in Hebrews 12:23?
Wrong again, there are no references to purgatory in the deuteros 2Mac does not teach it, nor praying to created beings in Heaven.
Why would you bother praying for the dead--which 2Mac does mention--if there were no purgatory?
On the canon, no, the Council of Trent was preceded by over 1,000 years--by the Synod of Hippo, for instance. And the books of the Apocrypha are found in the oldest surviving copies of the LXX. The theory that these were a later addition is not supported by the manuscripts we now have.
I think I've spent about half the day on this thread now, so I will need to pick this up another day if you're inclined. Thank you for the discussion.
You are still ignoring the manifest reality fact that such requests are never made to created beings in Heaven, but are only btwn those on earth, and which simply does not warrant assuming that prayers were made to created beings in Heaven.
Again, the Holy Spirit provides approx. 200 prayers in Scripture, but zero to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord, who is the One addressed in instruction and examples of prayer on That you cannot see that Heaven and earth are two different realms, and that only God is prayed to, and shown being able to hear and respond to all prayer, is to insist on teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Why would they ask God this if they weren't already aware of what was going on on earth and concerned about it? How did they become aware of it? And no, I'm not being careless or desperate, I'm trying to get people to read the text and think through the issues more closely.
Think through the issues more closely is just what is lacking on your part, for presuming these martyred souls knew to some degree what was happening on earth - which would likely be due to the arrival of more martyred souls - just how does this example or teach that they were prayed to???
Nobody has pointed out any inconsistencies between Catholicism and Scripture so far in the posts I've read
Which is like a thief who cannot find a police station. Among many other inconsistencies between Catholicism and the record of the NT church in Scripture, you have one church regularly engaging in prayer to created beings in Heaven and instructing them to do so, while the inspired record of the NT church - and indeed all of Scripture - there is not one single example of praying to anyone else in Heaven but God, except by pagans, and instruction or in examples on who to address in prayer to Heaven is only to God.
Quite the opposite, it was conceded earlier that there is no Scriptural prohibition against asking the faithful departed to pray for us.
There is also no prohibition against such a thing as consensual cannibalism (you have me for dinner when i die, or i have you, whoever dies first) as a normal practice, but based upon what we see set forth as man's food we can see that, based upon principal, such would be wrong as a practice, if not perhaps in dire circumstances. Regardless, do you really hold that the absence of any manifest Scriptural prohibition for something justifies it being held as a doctrine, even when it deals with a most basic common practice which lacks even one example among approx. 200 in Scripture? You insult the Holy Spirit, who would not be neglectful to record such if indeed it was a practice, for which there are multitudes of opportunities, and you presume upon God by directing souls to engage in a practice of supplication that only He is shown to be the direct recipient of, and able to hear all from Heaven.
And here you are conceding that we are dependent on the Church Fathers for our NT manuscripts and our knowledge of the 1st century.
Not entirely, but as said, we were also dependent upon the Jews for OT manuscripts and our knowledge of that era, as well as to archeologists, but which does not make such the standard for Truth over wholly inspired Scripture. And if you want to argue that being the magisterial steward of Divine revelation makes that office perpetually the supreme authority on it then you have no valid church.
I agree that the Church Fathers don't have the 100% accuracy of Scripture, but the point is, you don't even have Scripture without them, so Sola Scriptura isn't a consistent position.
What? Do you really believe that SS means only Scripture is to be used and is wholly formally sufficient, which thus excludes even reasoning? This is certainly not what the Reformers themselves exampled. "Substantiation for this understanding of the gospel came principally from the Scriptures, but whenever they could, the reformers also quoted the fathers of the catholic church. There was more to quote than their Roman opponents found comfortable" (Jaroslav Pelikan, The Riddle of Roman Catholicism (New York: Abingdon Press, 1959).
But as is abundantly evidenced, the word of God/the Lord was normally written, even if sometimes first being spoken, and that as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.
The traditions Paul was referring to were written down by the post-NT writers
Which is mere an argument by assertion for something you cannot show, and the Old Roman Creed does not do it, but Caths have no problem making doctrines out of what is not seen.
I do agree that we must test traditions against Scripture and that Rome is not free to make up new revelations which do not have early and widespread historical attestation.
Okay, I'll cite two verses in the NT. What does Paul mean by "one escaping through the flames" on the day of judgement in 1 Corinthians 3:15?
Typical abuse of Scripture, for 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 does NOT teach purgatory, for it not only refers to the judgment seat of Christ, which does not take place until the Lord's return, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) versus purgatory, which has souls suffering commencing upon death. This alone disqualifies I Corinthians 3 from referring Purgatory, while the suffering is that of the loss of rewards (with the Lord's displeasure), which one is saved despite of, not because of.
Moreover, the basis for loss or gain of rewards is based upon the manner of workmanship one built the church with, as in tares or wheat.
"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. (1 Corinthians 3:8-10) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) "
Thus Paul speaks of believers being his rewards: "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? " (1 Thess. 2:19; cf. Rv. 3:11) And to the Corinthians, “we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.” 2Cor. 1:14) And to the Philippians, that being “my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.” (Phil. 4:1)
Nowhere does Scripture tell of believers being in a place of suffering for a time commencing at death, but while the tormented postmortem state of the lost is clear, the only clear references to the postmortem place elect souls go to refers to them being with the Lord.
Faced with the fact that the only texts which clearly speak of the believers postmortem or post-earth existence show it to be with the Lord, the RC must engage in special pleading (the "good thief" somehow became good enough on the cross to enter Heaven directly while others can take centuries), and forcing texts which speak of chastisement in this life, or which speak of the lost, as referring to the postmortem existence of believers. But while the tormented postmortem state of the lost is clear, wherever the NT manifestly deals with the reality of the life after this one then it is them being with the Lord.
Not only did the penitent criminal go to "paradise" (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as did Stephen, (Acts 7:59) but so would Paul and co. be with the Lord once absent from the body (Phil. 1:23,24) - even though Paul told the Philippians that was he not “already perfect.” (Phil. 3:12).Likewise he stated to the Corinthians, "We [plural] are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8) and so would every resurrected Corinthian believer (1Cor. 15:51ff) or Thessalonian if the Lord returned in their lifetime, “to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1Thess. 4:17) - even though in the former case at least believers were in need of greater purification. (2Cor. 7:1) And with the only suffering after this life being that of the judgment seat of Christ due to the loss of rewards (and fear and grief of the Lord's disapproval), which one is saved despite of. .
Faced with the fact that the only texts which clearly speak of the believers postmortem or post-earth existence show it to be with the Lord, the RC must engage in special pleading (the "good thief" somehow became good enough on the cross to enter Heaven directly while others can take centuries), and forcing texts which speak of chastisement in this life, or which speak of the lost, as referring to the postmortem existence of believers. I have dealt with all that i have seen, by the grace of God, but if you want to try...
And who are the "spirits of righteous men made perfect" in Hebrews 12:23?
Literally spirits [pneuma] just [dikaios] perfect [teleioō] but why not look at the context and see what "perfect" refers to, rather than in isolation? Hebrews is about the "better" (key word) covenant, high priest, promises, etc. by the redemption of Christ (and thus exhortations to continue in faith and to not forsake so great salvation), and as part of this we see that these OT saints were not made "perfect" in that they awaited the redemption of Christ by which both OT and NT believers enter Heaven. "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." (Hebrews 10:4) Thus "the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing." (Hebrews 9:8) But, "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent." (Matthew 27:50-51) "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things." (Ephesians 4:9-10) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:19-20) "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.' (Matthew 27:52-53)
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39-40) <
Thus this "perfect" is not speaking of perfection of character, but completeness in realizing the promise of Heaven by the redemption of Christ whereby all believers are made to sit with Christ in Heaven (Eph. 2:6) on His account, and shall "ever be with the Lord" at death or his return, then thus the next verse states,
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Hebrews 12:1)
Which leads to the verse at issue, which is prefaced not with the statement that believers are come to purgatory,
but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. (Hebrews 12:22-23)
And if most NT believers were not in Heaven then Hebrews would not put them there, and would teach that they must be made perfect after this life, yet which it nowhere does. Instead it teaches that God taketh away the first [covenant], that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:9-10,:14)
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (Hebrews 10:19-20)
Thus believers have spiritual access now in Heaven, and both OT and NT believers go to Heaven right after this life. By His grace, thanks be to God.