Posted on 04/19/2017 4:31:51 PM PDT by NYer
Me neither!
You make no sense. You hope I make it through judgement day, yet you declare you are already saved, as if your judgement has already happened.
The sin of presumption.
Please give your Biblical proof where the Blessed Mother was a sinner.
Put up or shut-up.
The sin of presumption.
It makes perfect sense to me. Yes, I hope you make it past the judgement. It's up to you. Yes, I am already saved, my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Yes, my judgement has already happened. It was settled, once and forever at the cross. If accepting God at his word is sin, where do I sign up? Oops, I already signed up.
Anyway, our little refreshment thing is over, and I need to lead the Bible study for all my Catholic friends. They are here now, and it is still almost unbearably hot.
That would be easy. She acknowledged her own need for salvation.
What is truly impossible, is to show such dogma as Immaculate Conception, from Scripture. I'll spot you the first 3 centuries Church traditions too, although reserve right of judgement enough to disallow interpolation of interpretation. In other words, no reading in-between the lines.
But I'll offer you the chance, on the slim-to-none pickings chance that I'm wrong.
Will it make you shut up if I do? It's late and I had a long day with Mom. I'll give you some more verses tomorrow. For now:
Romans 3:10, As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
Romans 3:23, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Ecclesiastes 7:20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture has concluded all under sin,
Romans 5:12, Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.
Luke 1:46-48, And Mary said: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[c] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
See. There’s the difference in us.
I’m not into *religion*. I’m committed to Jesus, not a system of religious beliefs and works. That’s why I don’t care what church people go to as opposed to those who will condemn anyone who is not one of them.
Because churches don’t save.
Jesus does.
Nevertheless, Catholicism has co-existed with Protestantism just fine because Prots are not running around chopping people’s heads off for disagreeing with them, rather unlike Catholic church history, which is submit or die. (Which sounds eerily familiar)
However this situation is more a result of the protection by our Constitution and Protestant based culture, than any effort on the part of Catholicism. Catholic history bears that out.
It wouldn’t be a problem either if the Catholic church didn’t kill what it considers *heretics*.
But I suppose that if you would go by Scriptural definition, then even Catholicism isn't the OTC because James tells us what true religion in the eyes of God is.
James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
Hmmm, don't see the word *Catholic* in there anywhere.....
Only according to the Catholic church which doesn't WANT people to be secure in their salvation.
If they thought they were secure, they might be tempted to leave the Catholic church and it would lose it's job security and source of income.
By telling people what you claim, and continually dangling people's eternal destiny over their heads, then they can forever keep them jumping through Catholic hoops and keep the cash flow going.
Scripture does not tell us at all that presumption is a sin, not is being secure in God's promises a sin.
On the contrary, it's an indication that we are not calling God a liar when HE tells us we are secure.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:37-39 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
Don't you believe Jesus' own words?
And he left a religion that tolerates pederast priests and grants church approved divorce.
There’s no need for people with moral issues to leave Catholicism. Heck they can be a pro-abortion, pro-homosexual marriage politician who murders young pregnant aides, be a diabolical dictator, or a Mafia hit man and still be considered a *good* Catholic buy the church and receive communion and get a Catholic funeral.
People who love sin don’t need to leave Catholicism.
On the contrary, from the looks of it, it would be those who love sin who STAY.
Matthew 1:24-25 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
Matthew 12:46-47 While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
Mark 6:2-3 And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?”... “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
John 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
Acts 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
1 Corinthians 9:4-5 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
Galatians 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
Seems rather presumptuous to me as well for someone to claim that their religion is the OTC and all other religions are false and that only Catholics are going to heaven and nobody else is.
It is also presumption. We are being condemned by Catholics for committing a sin they themselves commit.
Can you say *hypocrisy*?
What a clear misunderstanding of that passage.
It wasn’t about presumption. It was about self-righteousness based on works and bragging to God about them.
You missed the entire point of that passage, which is hardly surprising.
Taking God at His word, believing what He tells us, is NOT presumption, it is FAITH.
And I'd rather exhibit that than call God a liar by denying and not believing the very promises HE HIMSELF gave us in His word.
HE told us that we could be secure in our salvation and for someone to come along and say that isn't true is setting oneself up in judgment of God, deciding He's wrong, and calling Him a liar.
Not a position I'd choose to put myself in, but to each their own.
Complete and unadulterated nonsense.
Show us in Scripture where God tells us that.
And then prove from Scripture that Catholicism is the OTC.
For that matter, show us in Scripture where the word *catholic* even appears.
That's getting a bit too personal.
What was it that she said? This(?) perhaps;
And you, ebb tide had copied/pasted that, then replied;
I assume you must have meant has not/had not co-existed "just fine"(?) rather than--
The sentence structure began in a negative and ended on positive, leaving one to guess.
Were you being super-sly? Catholicism has gotten along with Protestants (on this forum) and has not --- also? Maybe (if it was slight mistake, as it appears to be) it's one of those mistakes that works out in the end resulting being true. It's true, it's true, it's not true it's not true at the same time.
To the ~~not on this forum, it has~~ strangeness, metmom replied;
That's edging towards getting personal -- although is talking about the way you post (rather then merely and only yourself in some other fashion) not that I'm complaining about metmom here, and of course not that I have unrestricted space to complain about others getting personal on the religion forum for having very often fired back when people around here do get personal with me, rather than been able to keep it all at a dispassionate arm's length. I don't care for witnessing Catholics casually, personally degrade individual freepers (or do it wholesale on some thread when it's intended to be taken personally by those present when they know it would be against the rules to do it more directly). The read-between-the-lines dismissive insults STILL are deliberately making things personal. I witnessed somebody hand one of those to you, on this thread (a couple pages after this post presently being replied to) under cover of being addressed toward a group you mentioned. According to another here that group "doesn't matter" (which could have as well been intended to mean -- you-- don't matter?). It appeared to me that was part of the intent.
In reply to the above last quoted from metmom, you said;
That does cross fully over the lines, and becomes very personal, while placing blame for past "problems" on her(?!?) seemingly alone. That's just so much [I can't say the words, on this forum, but if I was to being talking face-to-face, wouldn't hesitate].
Perhaps she was correct, and for sake of getting along -- you should consider "changing the way you post" on this forum?
Saying things like that is against the rules. Don't make it personal? ---please--
For the Catholic church, never.
Luke 1:46-47And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
Only sinners need a Savior and Mary herself called God her Savior, hence HER recognition that she was a sinner.
If she was without sin, as Catholic claim, then salvation would be possible without Jesus having to die, which again, calls God a liar.
And the stupid argument that God kept her from sin before she was born doesn't work because you can't be a sinner if you never sinned. And if she never sinned, then she wasn't a sinner.
Romans 3:20-30 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
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