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Beneath Her Compassion
Glory to God for All Things ^ | 11-19-2016 | Fr. Stephen Freeman

Posted on 11/20/2016 10:43:00 AM PST by NRx

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2009/05/610x3.jpg

Among the greater mysteries of the New Testament are those surrounding the Mother of God. A large segment of modern Christianity has become tone deaf in this regard, a result of centuries of antagonism towards certain aspects of older tradition. It is a deafness that grieves my heart, primarily in that it represents a great gulf within the broader experience of the faith. A few years after my reception into the Orthodox Church, a friend from my Anglican past asked me if I ever thought of returning. He had no idea of how foreign the thought was to me. But within my mind, the first thought was the absence of Mary. I think I said something to the effect that I could never consider leaving “my mother.”

I’m not sure what those who are strangers to Mary imagine goes on in the life of an Orthodox or Catholic Christian. I cannot speak for Catholics (they’re more than capable of speaking for themselves). First, I know that there is nothing even remotely like worship accorded to her. The entire experience of veneration seems to have been lost within Protestant thinking. I often use examples of patriotic feeling, or some such inadequate experience, to suggest analogies. But, in truth, it is an experience that has no parallel.

For one, I have no conception of Mary apart from Christ. She is not someone-in-herself to be considered alone. The traditional title affirmed by the 3rd Ecumenical Council is “Theotokos,” the “Birthgiver of God.” In the same manner, we say of Christ, “born of the Virgin Mary.” Christ is the God become man, and His humanity is utterly and completely derivative of Mary. He is bone of her bone and flesh of her flesh. It is the nature of our humanity that if we speak of His Body and Blood, we cannot do so in a manner that excludes her from that reality.

But saying this can easily be lost in words of doctrine. Doctrine is always a discussion of reality, and it is the reality we want rather than the words. The Body and Blood of Christ are not an abstraction. They are a sweet warmth within the experience of the believer. How would I describe to the non-Christian the experience of communion? There are no words that I would ever exchange for that singular taste.

The oldest known devotion to Mary can be found in the words of a hymn that is documented to have existed and been sung before the middle of the 3rd century. It remains a very important hymn within Orthodoxy to this day:

Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Theotokos:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble;
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.

Anyone who might suggest that this hymn represents some pagan-importation is simply historically ignorant. The 3rd century is the great century of martyrs when the Church was in constant conflict with the official paganism of the Empire. There is no historical legitimacy for a claim of a paganizing of the faith during this period. Honoring Mary, including asking her intercessions, was perfectly at home within the mind of the primitive Church.

But what heart first uttered this cry to the compassion of the Theotokos? How did the Church learn of such a thing? That compassion is well described, for it was prophesied in Scripture.

At the time of Christ’s presentation in the Temple (at 40 days of age), Mary is warned about his coming role in Israel, and told that “a sword will pierce your own soul also” (Lk 2:34-35). This is more than maternal grief. Her union with Christ, expressed in the words of her innocent humility, rendered her uniquely vulnerable at the Cross. Christ is wounded for our transgressions, but she is wounded as well. The Church’s instinct and experience says that she is vulnerable to the sufferings of all.

The word translated “compassion” (εὐσπλαγχνία) is itself worth noting. It seems to be a Greek effort to translate a Hebrew word (רַחֲמִים  rachamim) and indicates a deep pain identified with the womb. It is the very deep heart of maternal suffering.

The fear of this experience and knowledge, I suspect, is driven by the centuries-old accusation of “Mary-worship,” as well as an idea that anything or anyone given honor other than God represents competition for God, and denigrates His glory. People might argue with the form that honor has taken over the centuries (icons, candles, hymns, prayers, etc.), but at no time has there ever been any intention of offering worship. Indeed, that would be condemned as the worst of heresies.

But we have forgotten the ancient Christian ethos of honor and veneration. The Scriptures nowhere describe God as “alone.” Instead, He is consistently depicted as the Lord of “Hosts” (a vast crowd). The God made known in Christ is a relational God who is Himself described as “love.” The honor and veneration given to the saints within the Church is simply the liturgical expression of love. It is not worship. Generations of Christians, however, have become estranged from the court of Christ, and fancied the Kingdom either as a democracy, or the King without His entourage. They have forgotten the place of the King’s mother and the honor due His friends. In short, we have become rude in our spiritual bearing and made ourselves strangers to heaven.

God is a generous God, quick to forgive. He has not allowed us to destroy the ethos or the witness of the Apostles’ successors. The reality of His heaven abides. We can regain was has been lost, beginning, perhaps, with careful consideration of the doctrine and practice involved (free of passions and mischaracterizations). But only time and usage heal what is essentially a relational matter.

Perhaps reciting the words of that ancient hymn that has found its place on the lips of saints through the ages would be a good place to begin.

We need all the friends we can find!

Written in honor of the Feast of the Entrance of the Mother of God into the Temple, November 21


TOPICS: Apologetics; Orthodox Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: astarte; catholic; isis; motherofosirus; queenofheaven
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To: Petrosius
And how do you know who these are? How can you know that I might not be one?

22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 1 Jn 2:22

We also have the example of the Bereans who searched the Scriptures in Acts 17 as en example.

I would measure your teaching against the Word. If found to be in contradiction of truth you would be a false prophet.

Hence the Christian concern with catholics bowing and praying to Mary and invoking her as co-redemtrix and mediator in contradiction of the NT that teaches we only have ONE mediator and Redeemer and that prayers are directed to the Father or Christ and never to Mary in the NT.

181 posted on 11/23/2016 10:33:57 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone
I would measure your teaching against the Word. If found to be in contradiction of truth you would be a false prophet.

But we are arguing about what the Word means. You are arguing that you will only follow those whose understanding of the Word is the same as yours. This is a tautology. You are, in effect saying that the only one that you can be certain that the Holy Spirit is working through is ealgeone. But what if eagleone is mistaken about the Word, where can he find the true Church that will correct him?

182 posted on 11/23/2016 10:58:06 AM PST by Petrosius
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To: metmom

Thank you for the citations of Scripture calling Mary the mother of Jesus.

Since, as Scripture also tells us, Jesus is God,

therefore, we know, directly from Scripture, that Mary is the mother of God.


183 posted on 11/23/2016 11:19:36 AM PST by Arthur McGowan (https://youtu.be/IYUYya6bPGw)
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To: ealgeone

Thank you for your frank admission that your assertions will not survive discussion.


184 posted on 11/23/2016 11:21:19 AM PST by Arthur McGowan (https://youtu.be/IYUYya6bPGw)
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To: Arthur McGowan

Hardly the case.


185 posted on 11/23/2016 11:49:03 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: Petrosius
But we are arguing about what the Word means. You are arguing that you will only follow those whose understanding of the Word is the same as yours. This is a tautology. You are, in effect saying that the only one that you can be certain that the Holy Spirit is working through is ealgeone. But what if eagleone is mistaken about the Word, where can he find the true Church that will correct him?

I don't agree with the assertion stated above.

There are millions of Christians who read the Word and come to the same conclusions.

There may be some minor disagreement on some things but on the primary issue there is no disagreement.

Christianity teaches Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (see 1 John)

Faith in Him, and Him alone, is required for salvation (John 3:16). There is no one else we can turn to or should turn to for our salvation (John 14:6).

He is the one time sacrifice for our sins (Heb 10:12).

He is the only offering we have need of (Heb 10:14).

He forgives all of our sins and in fact rubs them out (Col 2:13-14).

He, and only He, is our Redeemer (Is 44:24).

He, and only He, is and Mediator (1 Tim 2:5; Heb 9:15). There are no others. None.

Believers have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and are never unsealed (Eph 1:13-14).

We can be confident, because of Him, of our salvation (1 Jn 5:13).

186 posted on 11/23/2016 1:47:00 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone
I don't agree with the assertion stated above. There are millions of Christians who read the Word and come to the same conclusions.

Then you would also be in agreement with the majority of Christians who have come to the same the same Catholic understanding of the following passages:

Sola scripture

Jn 21:25 ... not everything is in the Bible.
2 Thess 2:15; 2 Tim 2:2; 1 Cor 11:2; 1 Thess 2:13 ... Paul speaks of oral tradition.
Acts 2:42 ... early Christians followed apostolic tradition.
2 Pet 3:16 ... Bible hard to understand, get distorted.
2 Jn 1:12; 3 Jn 1:13-14 ... more oral tradition.
2 Pet 1:20-21 ... against personal interpretation.
Acts 8:31; Heb 5:12 ... guidance needed to interpret scriptures.


Sola fide

Jas 2:14-26 ... what good is faith w/o works?
Heb 10:26 ... must avoid sin.
Jas 5:20 ... "earning" forgiveness.
Lk 6:46; Mt 7:21; Mt 19:16-21; Jn 5:29 ... must do will of God.
1 Cor 9:27 ... "buffet my body ..."
Phil 2:12; 2 Cor 5:10; Rom 2:6-10, 13, 3:31; Mt 25:32-46; Gal 6:6-10; Rev 20:12 ... works have merit.
1 Jn 2:3-4; 1 Jn 3:24; 1 Jn 5:3 ... keep commandments.

Salvation (once and for all?)


1 Cor 9:27 ... after preaching ... I myself disqualified.
1 Cor 10:12 ... thinks that he stands ... lest he fall.
Phil 2:12 ... work out salvation with fear and trembling.
Heb 4:1 ... fear of failing to reach salvation.
1 Jn 5:16,17 ... some sins are mortal, some not.
Rom 11:21,22 ... spare branches, continue or be cut off.


Deuterocanonicals

Deuterocanonicals were used in NT: 2 Mach 6:18-7:42 ... Heb 11:35; Wisdom 3:5-6 ... 1 Pet 1:6-7; Wisdom 13:1-9 ... Rom 1:18-32
Septuagint (Gk, w/ Deuterocanonicals) version of OT quoted in NT, noticably different from Hebrew version: Is 7:14 ... Mt 1:23; Is 40:3 ... Mt 3:3; Joel 2:30-31 ... Acts 2:19-29; Ps 95:7-9 ... Heb 3:7-9 etc.


Purgatory

Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 ... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 ... no forgiveness ... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:19 ... purgatory (limbo?).
Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins


Eucharist

Mt 26:26-27; Mk 14:22,24; Lk 22:19-20; 1 Cor 10:24-25 ... this is my body ... this is my blood.
1 Cor 11:26-30 ... sinning against the body and blood.
Jn 6:32-58 ... long discourse on Eucharist.
Gen 14:18; Ps 110:4; Heb 7:1-17 ... Melchizedek.
Acts 2:42 ... breaking of bread.
Ps 27:1-2; Is 9:18-20; Is 49:26; Micah 3:3; Rev 17:6,16 ... symbolic interpretation of Jn 6 inappropriate.


Baptism of infants

Acts 2:38-39; Acts 16:15, 16:33, 18:8; 1 Cor 1:16 ... suggests baptism of all, incl. children.
Jn 3:5; Rom 6:4 ... necessity of baptism.
Col 2:11-12 ... circumcision (normally performed on infants c.f. Gen 17:12) replaced by baptism.


Forgiveness of sins

Jn 20:22-23 ... "if you forgive ... they are forgiven."
Mt 18:18 ... binding on earth and heaven.
2 Cor 5:18 ... ministry of reconciliation.
Jas 5:14-16 ... forgiveness of sins, anointing of the sick, confession.


Papacy/infallibility

Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13; Lk 9:32 ... Peter always mentioned first, as foremost apostle.
Mt 18:21; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69 ... Peter speaks for the apostles.
Acts 2:14-40 ... Pentecost: Peter who first preached.
Acts 3:6-7 ... Peter worked first healing.
Acts 10:46-48 ... Gentiles to be baptized revealed to Peter.
Jn 1:42 ... Simon is Cephas (Aramaic: Kepha for rock).
Mt 16:18-19 ... "on this Rock ... keys ... bind ... loose"
Is 22:22; Rev 1:18 ... keys as symbol of authority.
Jn 21:17 ... "feed my sheep"
Lk 22:31-32 ... "Simon ... strengthen your brethren".
Lk 10:1-2, 16; Jn 13:20; 2 Cor 5:20; Gal 4:14; Acts 5:1-5 ... "vicars" (substitutes) of Christ.
Mk 6:20; Lk 1:70,2:23; Rom 12:1; Act 3:21, 1 Cor 7:14; Eph 3:5; Col 1:22 ... humans can be holy ("call no one holy").


"Brothers" of Jesus

Mary wife of Cleophas and "sister" of the Virgin Mary (Jn 19:25) is the mother of James and Joset (Mk 15:47; Mt 27:56) who are called the "brothers of Jesus" (Mk 6:3).
Acts 1:12-15 ... apostles, Mary, "some women" and Jesus' "brothers" number about 120. That is a lot of "brothers."
Gen 14:14 ... Lot, Abraham's nephew (Gen 11:26-28), described as Abraham's brother (KJV).
Gen 29:15 ... Laban, Jacob's uncle, calls Jacob his "brother" (KJV).
John 19:26-27 ... Jesus gives care of Mary to John, not one of his "brothers."
2 Sam 6:23, Gen 8:7, Dt 34:6 ... "until."


Mary

Gen 5:24; Heb 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1-13 ... Enoch and Elijah taken to heaven.
Lk 1:28 ... annunciation.
Lk 1:42-48 ... blessed are you among women.
2 Tim 4:8, Jas 1:12, 1 Pet 5:4, Rev 2:10 ... coronation awaits saints.
Jn 2:1-5 ... Mary's intercession.


Saints

Mk 12:26-27 ... "not God of the dead, but of the living."
Jn 15:1-8 ... vine and its branches.
1 Cor 12:25-27; Rom 12:4-5 ... body of Christ.
Eph 6:18; Rom 15:30; Col 4:3; 1 Thess 1:11 ... intercessory prayer.
Jos 5:14; Dan 8:17; Tob 12:16 ... veneration of angels united with God (Mt 18:10).
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 ... saints also united with God.
Lk 20-34-38 ... those who died are like angels.
2 Mac 15:11-16 ... deceased Onias and Jeremiah interceded for Jews.
Rev 8:3-4; Jer 15:1 ... saints' intercession.


Statues, images and relics

Ex 25:18-22, 26:1,31; Num 21:8-9 ... God commands images made.
1 Kings 6:23-29, 35, 7:29 ... Solomon's temple: statues and images.
Acts 19:11,12 ... Paul's handkerchiefs and aprons.
2 Kg 13:20-21 ... Elisha's bones.
Acts 5:15-16 ... Peter's shadow.
Mt 9:20-22 ... Jesus' garment cures woman.


Church and authority

Acts 2:42 ... doctrine, community, sacred rite (bread).
Eph 5:25-26 ... Christ loved the Church.
1 Tim 3:15 ... church is pillar/foundation of truth.
Mt 16:18; 20:20 ... Christ protects Church.
Heb 13:17 ... obey.
Mt 18:17-18 ... church as final authority.
Mt 23:2 ... Pharisees succeeded Moses (seat of Moses).
1 Cor 5:5; 1 Tim 1:20 ... excommunication.


Priesthood and worship

Acts 1:15-26; 2 Tim 2:2; Tit 1:5 ...unbroken succession.
Acts 15:6,23; 1 Tim 4:14, 5:22; 1 Tim 5:17; Jas 5:13-15 ... presbyters/elders (priests) were ordained, preached and taught the flock, administered sacraments.
Lk 16:24; Rom 4; 1 Cor 4:14-15; Acts 7:2; 1 Thess 2:11; 1 Jn 2:13-14 ... "call no one father"?
1 Cor 7:7-9 ... Paul unmarried.
Mt 19:12; 1 Cor 7:32,33 ... celibacy.
Gen 14:18; Ps 110:4; Heb 7:1-17 ... Melchizedek.
Rev 4:8 ... "vain repetition"?
1 Kg 8:54; 2 Chr 6:13; Ezra 9:5; Mt 17:14; Lk 5:8 ... kneeling.
Rev 8:3-4 ... incense.
1 Cor 12 ... different roles of members of body.


Justification

1 Jn 1:7, 2 Pet 1:9 ... purified from sins.
Jn 1:29, Heb 9:26-28 ... takes away sin.
Ps 50:3, Ps 102:12, Is 43:25 ... blot out, clear away sin.
Rom 2:13, Rom 3:20 ... future justification.
Heb 11:8...Gen 12:1-4; Rom 4:2-3...Gen 15:6; Jas 2:21-23...Gen 22:1-18 ... justifications of Abraham.
2 Pet 1:4 ... become partakers of the divine nature.

187 posted on 11/23/2016 2:17:10 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius

We’ve already disproven the unbroken succession claim with our discussion of Paul.


188 posted on 11/23/2016 4:20:28 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: Petrosius

I’ll address the others later. Got family in for Thanksgiving.


189 posted on 11/23/2016 4:21:40 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: Petrosius

I see by some of these verses and meaning that context is not the friend of the Catholic.


190 posted on 11/23/2016 4:26:59 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone

Saint Paul only shows an exception, not the rule. Paul’s own actions with Timothy and Titus show the rule.


191 posted on 11/23/2016 4:31:42 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: ealgeone

Have a blessed Thanksgiving.


192 posted on 11/23/2016 4:32:21 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: Arthur McGowan; ealgeone
Is this syllogism formally valid or invalid?

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Trinity.
Ergo, Mary is the mother of God, the Second Person of the Trinity.

Ahem...may I draw your attention to the qualificating words you are using? That's what I've been trying to show you. Wouldn't it preferable to use titles SCRIPTURE gives us instead of the twisty, turney ones you must utilize to try to teach some truth? If it really is your aim to clarify the doctrine of the Deity of Jesus Christ - as has been given as justification for the term MOG - then why not trust what God has given us?

193 posted on 11/23/2016 5:30:26 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Petrosius

Hope you and yours have a good one also. We had salmon croquettes, grits, salad and buttermilk biscuits.


194 posted on 11/23/2016 5:50:51 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: boatbums

I worded the syllogism the way I did because the way I worded it is what the Catholic Church teaches, and is what all Catholics believe.

To be distinguished from the insistence of some that the word “God” is an absolutely univocal term, that always and everywhere means “the Trinity.”

Starting with this preposterous proposition, they pretend to “prove” that the title “Mother of God” absolutely must mean that Mary is an eternal being who gave birth to God in eternity OR that God began to exist in Nazareth approximately 2,000 years ago.

Since Catholics would have to be morons to believe either one of those propositions, these controversialists are only too happy to brand all Catholics as morons and dupes.

The intellectual dishonesty of a person who simultaneously professes to believe—

—the word “God” ALWAYS denotes the “Trinity”
—Jesus is “God” but is “the Son,” not the whole “Trinity”

—is patent.

The title “Mother of God” means that Mary, a creature, became the Mother of Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word or Son, the Second Person of the Trinity.

To insist on DENYING the title “Mother of God” to Mary is to deny that Jesus Christ is ONE PERSON, the Word, the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity.

Anyone who says that Mary is the “mother of Jesus but not the mother of God” is saying that the person “Jesus” is not the person God the Son, the Word.

Many have fallen into the most gross, blatant Christological heresies precisely because of a determination to deny that the person Mary is the mother of, is not the person called the Word or God the Son.


195 posted on 11/23/2016 7:23:49 PM PST by Arthur McGowan (https://youtu.be/IYUYya6bPGw)
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To: Arthur McGowan
Anyone who says that Mary is the “mother of Jesus but not the mother of God” is saying that the person “Jesus” is not the person God the Son, the Word. Many have fallen into the most gross, blatant Christological heresies precisely because of a determination to deny that the person Mary is the mother of, is not the person called the Word or God the Son.

No, actually they're not. Are you asserting anyone who rejects calling Mary the "Mother of God" is guilty of heresy? I've seen many people fall into the most gross, blatant, DISOBEDIENCE to the commands of God by bowing down to, praying to, worshipping and idolizing images and statues all the while profusely denying they are doing so to the detriment of their relationship with Christ. No one here has denied that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He is Almighty God in the flesh/God with us, so declaring we are heretics based upon some novel Roman Catholic dogma - that NONE of the Apostles ever taught or preached - is proving that some Catholics are only too happy to brand all non-Catholics as morons and dupes.

Do you think someone can go overboard in their "honoring" of Mary? I know many Catholics think non-Catholics don't honor her enough, but can she ever be honored too much?

196 posted on 11/23/2016 8:36:34 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
What creed do you recite? Does it include, "I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary"?
197 posted on 11/23/2016 8:53:18 PM PST by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome)
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To: boatbums; Arthur McGowan

.
The spirit of Yeshua was his ‘God’ part, not his body, which was the only part that Mary had anything to do with.

Yehova our Elohim has no mother, and the term ‘mother of God’ is grave blasphemy.

Yeshua had to give up his spirit, his god nature, in order to die as the sinless Lamb of God.
.
.


198 posted on 11/23/2016 9:05:58 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: ebb tide; boatbums

.
There is not even one creed in scripture.

All creeds are man made religion, just like the Takanot of the Pharisees that Yeshua demolished by his Earthly ministry.


199 posted on 11/23/2016 9:09:43 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: boatbums

Anyone who says that Mary is not the mother of God has to deny that Jesus is God.

Mary can be honored superstitiously, just as God can be worshiped superstitiously. For example, anytime someone comes to believe that a certain prayer “never fails.” Or, an ignorant person could believe that a particular image has some sort of power.

But such ideas come naturally to the ignorant. They directly contradict the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Anyone who denies that Mary is the mother of God has fallen into heresy, because the Scriptures tell us:

Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.


200 posted on 11/23/2016 10:00:39 PM PST by Arthur McGowan (https://youtu.be/IYUYya6bPGw)
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