Posted on 11/20/2016 10:43:00 AM PST by NRx
22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 1 Jn 2:22
We also have the example of the Bereans who searched the Scriptures in Acts 17 as en example.
I would measure your teaching against the Word. If found to be in contradiction of truth you would be a false prophet.
Hence the Christian concern with catholics bowing and praying to Mary and invoking her as co-redemtrix and mediator in contradiction of the NT that teaches we only have ONE mediator and Redeemer and that prayers are directed to the Father or Christ and never to Mary in the NT.
But we are arguing about what the Word means. You are arguing that you will only follow those whose understanding of the Word is the same as yours. This is a tautology. You are, in effect saying that the only one that you can be certain that the Holy Spirit is working through is ealgeone. But what if eagleone is mistaken about the Word, where can he find the true Church that will correct him?
Thank you for the citations of Scripture calling Mary the mother of Jesus.
Since, as Scripture also tells us, Jesus is God,
therefore, we know, directly from Scripture, that Mary is the mother of God.
Thank you for your frank admission that your assertions will not survive discussion.
Hardly the case.
I don't agree with the assertion stated above.
There are millions of Christians who read the Word and come to the same conclusions.
There may be some minor disagreement on some things but on the primary issue there is no disagreement.
Christianity teaches Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (see 1 John)
Faith in Him, and Him alone, is required for salvation (John 3:16). There is no one else we can turn to or should turn to for our salvation (John 14:6).
He is the one time sacrifice for our sins (Heb 10:12).
He is the only offering we have need of (Heb 10:14).
He forgives all of our sins and in fact rubs them out (Col 2:13-14).
He, and only He, is our Redeemer (Is 44:24).
He, and only He, is and Mediator (1 Tim 2:5; Heb 9:15). There are no others. None.
Believers have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and are never unsealed (Eph 1:13-14).
We can be confident, because of Him, of our salvation (1 Jn 5:13).
Then you would also be in agreement with the majority of Christians who have come to the same the same Catholic understanding of the following passages:
Sola scripture
Jn 21:25 ... not everything is in the Bible.
2 Thess 2:15; 2 Tim 2:2; 1 Cor 11:2; 1 Thess 2:13 ... Paul speaks of oral tradition.
Acts 2:42 ... early Christians followed apostolic tradition.
2 Pet 3:16 ... Bible hard to understand, get distorted.
2 Jn 1:12; 3 Jn 1:13-14 ... more oral tradition.
2 Pet 1:20-21 ... against personal interpretation.
Acts 8:31; Heb 5:12 ... guidance needed to interpret scriptures.
Sola fide
Jas 2:14-26 ... what good is faith w/o works? Salvation (once and for all?)
Heb 10:26 ... must avoid sin.
Jas 5:20 ... "earning" forgiveness.
Lk 6:46; Mt 7:21; Mt 19:16-21; Jn 5:29 ... must do will of God.
1 Cor 9:27 ... "buffet my body ..."
Phil 2:12; 2 Cor 5:10; Rom 2:6-10, 13, 3:31; Mt 25:32-46; Gal 6:6-10; Rev 20:12 ... works have merit.
1 Jn 2:3-4; 1 Jn 3:24; 1 Jn 5:3 ... keep commandments.
1 Cor 9:27 ... after preaching ... I myself disqualified.
1 Cor 10:12 ... thinks that he stands ... lest he fall.
Phil 2:12 ... work out salvation with fear and trembling.
Heb 4:1 ... fear of failing to reach salvation.
1 Jn 5:16,17 ... some sins are mortal, some not.
Rom 11:21,22 ... spare branches, continue or be cut off.
Deuterocanonicals
Deuterocanonicals were used in NT: 2 Mach 6:18-7:42 ... Heb 11:35; Wisdom 3:5-6 ... 1 Pet 1:6-7; Wisdom 13:1-9 ... Rom 1:18-32
Septuagint (Gk, w/ Deuterocanonicals) version of OT quoted in NT, noticably different from Hebrew version: Is 7:14 ... Mt 1:23; Is 40:3 ... Mt 3:3; Joel 2:30-31 ... Acts 2:19-29; Ps 95:7-9 ... Heb 3:7-9 etc.
Purgatory
Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 ... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 ... no forgiveness ... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:19 ... purgatory (limbo?).
Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins
Eucharist
Mt 26:26-27; Mk 14:22,24; Lk 22:19-20; 1 Cor 10:24-25 ... this is my body ... this is my blood.
1 Cor 11:26-30 ... sinning against the body and blood.
Jn 6:32-58 ... long discourse on Eucharist.
Gen 14:18; Ps 110:4; Heb 7:1-17 ... Melchizedek.
Acts 2:42 ... breaking of bread.
Ps 27:1-2; Is 9:18-20; Is 49:26; Micah 3:3; Rev 17:6,16 ... symbolic interpretation of Jn 6 inappropriate.
Baptism of infants
Acts 2:38-39; Acts 16:15, 16:33, 18:8; 1 Cor 1:16 ... suggests baptism of all, incl. children.
Jn 3:5; Rom 6:4 ... necessity of baptism.
Col 2:11-12 ... circumcision (normally performed on infants c.f. Gen 17:12) replaced by baptism.
Forgiveness of sins
Jn 20:22-23 ... "if you forgive ... they are forgiven."
Mt 18:18 ... binding on earth and heaven.
2 Cor 5:18 ... ministry of reconciliation.
Jas 5:14-16 ... forgiveness of sins, anointing of the sick, confession.
Papacy/infallibility
Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13; Lk 9:32 ... Peter always mentioned first, as foremost apostle.
Mt 18:21; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69 ... Peter speaks for the apostles.
Acts 2:14-40 ... Pentecost: Peter who first preached.
Acts 3:6-7 ... Peter worked first healing.
Acts 10:46-48 ... Gentiles to be baptized revealed to Peter.
Jn 1:42 ... Simon is Cephas (Aramaic: Kepha for rock).
Mt 16:18-19 ... "on this Rock ... keys ... bind ... loose"
Is 22:22; Rev 1:18 ... keys as symbol of authority.
Jn 21:17 ... "feed my sheep"
Lk 22:31-32 ... "Simon ... strengthen your brethren".
Lk 10:1-2, 16; Jn 13:20; 2 Cor 5:20; Gal 4:14; Acts 5:1-5 ... "vicars" (substitutes) of Christ.
Mk 6:20; Lk 1:70,2:23; Rom 12:1; Act 3:21, 1 Cor 7:14; Eph 3:5; Col 1:22 ... humans can be holy ("call no one holy").
"Brothers" of Jesus
Mary wife of Cleophas and "sister" of the Virgin Mary (Jn 19:25) is the mother of James and Joset (Mk 15:47; Mt 27:56) who are called the "brothers of Jesus" (Mk 6:3).
Acts 1:12-15 ... apostles, Mary, "some women" and Jesus' "brothers" number about 120. That is a lot of "brothers."
Gen 14:14 ... Lot, Abraham's nephew (Gen 11:26-28), described as Abraham's brother (KJV).
Gen 29:15 ... Laban, Jacob's uncle, calls Jacob his "brother" (KJV).
John 19:26-27 ... Jesus gives care of Mary to John, not one of his "brothers."
2 Sam 6:23, Gen 8:7, Dt 34:6 ... "until."
Mary
Gen 5:24; Heb 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1-13 ... Enoch and Elijah taken to heaven.
Lk 1:28 ... annunciation.
Lk 1:42-48 ... blessed are you among women.
2 Tim 4:8, Jas 1:12, 1 Pet 5:4, Rev 2:10 ... coronation awaits saints.
Jn 2:1-5 ... Mary's intercession.
Saints
Mk 12:26-27 ... "not God of the dead, but of the living."
Jn 15:1-8 ... vine and its branches.
1 Cor 12:25-27; Rom 12:4-5 ... body of Christ.
Eph 6:18; Rom 15:30; Col 4:3; 1 Thess 1:11 ... intercessory prayer.
Jos 5:14; Dan 8:17; Tob 12:16 ... veneration of angels united with God (Mt 18:10).
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 ... saints also united with God.
Lk 20-34-38 ... those who died are like angels.
2 Mac 15:11-16 ... deceased Onias and Jeremiah interceded for Jews.
Rev 8:3-4; Jer 15:1 ... saints' intercession.
Statues, images and relics
Ex 25:18-22, 26:1,31; Num 21:8-9 ... God commands images made.
1 Kings 6:23-29, 35, 7:29 ... Solomon's temple: statues and images.
Acts 19:11,12 ... Paul's handkerchiefs and aprons.
2 Kg 13:20-21 ... Elisha's bones.
Acts 5:15-16 ... Peter's shadow.
Mt 9:20-22 ... Jesus' garment cures woman.
Church and authority
Acts 2:42 ... doctrine, community, sacred rite (bread).
Eph 5:25-26 ... Christ loved the Church.
1 Tim 3:15 ... church is pillar/foundation of truth.
Mt 16:18; 20:20 ... Christ protects Church.
Heb 13:17 ... obey.
Mt 18:17-18 ... church as final authority.
Mt 23:2 ... Pharisees succeeded Moses (seat of Moses).
1 Cor 5:5; 1 Tim 1:20 ... excommunication.
Priesthood and worship
Acts 1:15-26; 2 Tim 2:2; Tit 1:5 ...unbroken succession.
Acts 15:6,23; 1 Tim 4:14, 5:22; 1 Tim 5:17; Jas 5:13-15 ... presbyters/elders (priests) were ordained, preached and taught the flock, administered sacraments.
Lk 16:24; Rom 4; 1 Cor 4:14-15; Acts 7:2; 1 Thess 2:11; 1 Jn 2:13-14 ... "call no one father"?
1 Cor 7:7-9 ... Paul unmarried.
Mt 19:12; 1 Cor 7:32,33 ... celibacy.
Gen 14:18; Ps 110:4; Heb 7:1-17 ... Melchizedek.
Rev 4:8 ... "vain repetition"?
1 Kg 8:54; 2 Chr 6:13; Ezra 9:5; Mt 17:14; Lk 5:8 ... kneeling.
Rev 8:3-4 ... incense.
1 Cor 12 ... different roles of members of body.
Justification
1 Jn 1:7, 2 Pet 1:9 ... purified from sins.
Jn 1:29, Heb 9:26-28 ... takes away sin.
Ps 50:3, Ps 102:12, Is 43:25 ... blot out, clear away sin.
Rom 2:13, Rom 3:20 ... future justification.
Heb 11:8...Gen 12:1-4; Rom 4:2-3...Gen 15:6; Jas 2:21-23...Gen 22:1-18 ... justifications of Abraham.
2 Pet 1:4 ... become partakers of the divine nature.
We’ve already disproven the unbroken succession claim with our discussion of Paul.
I’ll address the others later. Got family in for Thanksgiving.
I see by some of these verses and meaning that context is not the friend of the Catholic.
Saint Paul only shows an exception, not the rule. Paul’s own actions with Timothy and Titus show the rule.
Have a blessed Thanksgiving.
Ahem...may I draw your attention to the qualificating words you are using? That's what I've been trying to show you. Wouldn't it preferable to use titles SCRIPTURE gives us instead of the twisty, turney ones you must utilize to try to teach some truth? If it really is your aim to clarify the doctrine of the Deity of Jesus Christ - as has been given as justification for the term MOG - then why not trust what God has given us?
Hope you and yours have a good one also. We had salmon croquettes, grits, salad and buttermilk biscuits.
I worded the syllogism the way I did because the way I worded it is what the Catholic Church teaches, and is what all Catholics believe.
To be distinguished from the insistence of some that the word “God” is an absolutely univocal term, that always and everywhere means “the Trinity.”
Starting with this preposterous proposition, they pretend to “prove” that the title “Mother of God” absolutely must mean that Mary is an eternal being who gave birth to God in eternity OR that God began to exist in Nazareth approximately 2,000 years ago.
Since Catholics would have to be morons to believe either one of those propositions, these controversialists are only too happy to brand all Catholics as morons and dupes.
The intellectual dishonesty of a person who simultaneously professes to believe—
—the word “God” ALWAYS denotes the “Trinity”
—Jesus is “God” but is “the Son,” not the whole “Trinity”
—is patent.
The title “Mother of God” means that Mary, a creature, became the Mother of Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word or Son, the Second Person of the Trinity.
To insist on DENYING the title “Mother of God” to Mary is to deny that Jesus Christ is ONE PERSON, the Word, the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity.
Anyone who says that Mary is the “mother of Jesus but not the mother of God” is saying that the person “Jesus” is not the person God the Son, the Word.
Many have fallen into the most gross, blatant Christological heresies precisely because of a determination to deny that the person Mary is the mother of, is not the person called the Word or God the Son.
No, actually they're not. Are you asserting anyone who rejects calling Mary the "Mother of God" is guilty of heresy? I've seen many people fall into the most gross, blatant, DISOBEDIENCE to the commands of God by bowing down to, praying to, worshipping and idolizing images and statues all the while profusely denying they are doing so to the detriment of their relationship with Christ. No one here has denied that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He is Almighty God in the flesh/God with us, so declaring we are heretics based upon some novel Roman Catholic dogma - that NONE of the Apostles ever taught or preached - is proving that some Catholics are only too happy to brand all non-Catholics as morons and dupes.
Do you think someone can go overboard in their "honoring" of Mary? I know many Catholics think non-Catholics don't honor her enough, but can she ever be honored too much?
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The spirit of Yeshua was his ‘God’ part, not his body, which was the only part that Mary had anything to do with.
Yehova our Elohim has no mother, and the term ‘mother of God’ is grave blasphemy.
Yeshua had to give up his spirit, his god nature, in order to die as the sinless Lamb of God.
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There is not even one creed in scripture.
All creeds are man made religion, just like the Takanot of the Pharisees that Yeshua demolished by his Earthly ministry.
Anyone who says that Mary is not the mother of God has to deny that Jesus is God.
Mary can be honored superstitiously, just as God can be worshiped superstitiously. For example, anytime someone comes to believe that a certain prayer “never fails.” Or, an ignorant person could believe that a particular image has some sort of power.
But such ideas come naturally to the ignorant. They directly contradict the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Anyone who denies that Mary is the mother of God has fallen into heresy, because the Scriptures tell us:
Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
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