Posted on 11/05/2016 3:50:50 PM PDT by ebb tide
Is there salvation outside the Catholic church?
So when God promises that if we confess our sins that HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness that He gave a human being the power to override Himself?
If God promises to forgive ALL our sin, then how can man retain it? Or why would Jesus tell men that they had the power to retain someone's sin?
Also, in that passage, confession is NOT mentioned. It does NOT say that if someone comes to them and confesses that they have the power to retain those sins.
Stephen, when he was being stoned, forgave the men who were killing him. A very good example of using what Jesus was referring to.
Because it is a sloppy disorganized mess?
Besides, when we non-Catholics ask questions regarding doctrine, we are usually, indeed frequently, directed to the Catechism of the Catholic church, produced by Vatican 2.
So some say it defines doctrine and some say it doesn't.
Who do we believe and why?
And please, make it cited official church teaching, not your own personal interpretation of church policy.
Peter was married.
Celibacy is NOT required anywhere in Scripture for leadership positions within the church.
On the contrary, being married WAS a requirement for those who wished to be in leadership positions.
Titus 1:5-9 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
1 Timothy 3:1-13 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
On the contrary, forbidding of marriage is a sign of falling away from faith, of wolves in sheep's clothing.
1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
They were Jewish, except for maybe Luke.
They are only claimed to be Catholic retroactively so the Catholic church could lay claim to them and claim ownership of them and Scripture.
Is that official church teaching or your own personal interpretation of it?
Also, please show us from the Scripture that Catholics love to claim that their church gave the world, where God anywhere at any time gives the church authority over governments or nations or gives it political power of any kind or any form.
It is NOT voluntary.
If a man wants to be a priest, he must take that vow.
If he doesn't then he is not permitted to become a priest.
Likewise, if a man who is a priest wants to marry, then he must leave the priesthood.
Well, it’s much older than that now and they are still not commenting.
Or will they call for reform from within and become modern day reformers?
Last time someone tried that, it did not end well for the people who did that.
That was a good story 700 years ago but that record has long since played itself out. The Church has been in self-denial ever since.
It wasn’t even good then.
Look at the Inquisition.
We are called to preach the word and make disciples, and NOT by the power of the sword or through coercion.
God wants our hearts FREELY given, not under compulsion as Catholicism demands.
For a church that claims it believes in free will, it isn’t much for giving people their own choice.
This should be the standard question asked of any catholic on these boards. They should only be able to provide answers using official church publications. No opinions or spin allowed.
This line is getting old. NewChurch hasn't taught the salvation of souls since Vatican II with its new Religion of Ecumenism. This is not just a Francis issue.
To the poster who asked where the Catholics are: you do need to give folks a chance to wake up in the morning and see the posts (I, for one, shut down my computer around 7 or so). However, like you, there are a few Catholic posters I am interested in seeing respond to this thread. They have not done so yet.
To a few of the protestant posters, you have good questions and the fact that they are not easily answered hits on the heart of the Crisis of which we Catholics are currently trying to make sense.
A majority of Catholics will vote as they are told to vote.` Soros knows they do as they are told so he manipulates the leadership. A key point is that Soros likely does not even believe in God, yet he can so easily -with enough money- manipulate those who profess to believe in God because they are followers of an institution, not the Holy Spirit.
Um, you stated, “All humans must obey the unchangeable teachings of the Catholic Church to attain eternal salvation.” A more blatant example of ungodly dictate one could not find. It is absolutely contrary to what JESUS taught, giving us yet another example of why catholiciism is not Christianity, not even close. So long as you trust in your institution to ‘strive you along to salvation’ you remain a dead soul.
What utter catholic hubris! So your religion is the author of The Scriptures? STOP conflating your religion’s institution with the Ekklesia of Jesus The Christ ... then perhaps you will see the hubris dripping from your own words!
So it pertains to the Church to physically exterminate from her countries all she deems to be heretics, and to possibly torture suspected ones and witnesses?
You can only wish this text speaks of a Roman pope. Instead this assertion is simply begging the question as it nowhere is defined as speaking of a Roman pope. Instead, its meaning is to be found by examination of how the NT church saw Peter in Acts onward, which writings are interpretive of the gospels.
And in which we nowhere see the NT church looking to Peter as the first of a line of infallible popes supremely reigning over the church from Rome.
Instead, we that the Peter of Scripture is critically not that of Rome, which even Catholic scholarship, among others, provides testimony against.
You are free to argue otherwise, and which will afford another opportunity to expose RC sophistry, by the grace of God.
Penance, John 20: .... Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained.”
Another vain extrapolative attempt, for this not only says nothing about penance, which is the type of thing a person does that shows repentance, but it does not correspond to believers needing to regularly come to NT "priests" in order to obtain forgiveness, which is nowhere taught or exampled in the life of the NT church.
In fact, the only place where confession of sin to others is called for is that of to each other, to believers in general, and to whom binding and loosing power is provided if of such fervent holy faith as Elijah, who bound and loosed the heavens. And which believers have a function in obtaining forgiveness for others as instruments of reconciliation.
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:16-20)
The intercession of the presbuteros of the church can obtain deliverance from chastisement for the sick, who is not told to confess anything, and likely pertains to a sin of ignorance.
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:14-15)
And which corresponds to Mk. 2:1-12, in which the Lord forgave one who confessed nothing, but was being chastised for sin, and which forgiveness went hand in hand with healing:
Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? (Mark 2:9)
The judicial power of binding and loosing in matters of controversy and discipline does pertain to the magisterial office, together with the church, as seen in 1Co. 5:5, and which flows from the OT magisterial office which functioned thusly. (Dt. 17:8-13)
Yet Paul stated the if the church forgave the disciplined man in the name of Christ then so also would Paul.
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; (2 Corinthians 2:10)
But regularly distinctively confessing to distinctively titled NT "priests" simply does not exist.
With regard to those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed, the following examples can be given: the legitimacy of the election of the Supreme Pontiff or of the celebration of an ecumenical council, the canonizations of saints (dogmatic facts)
With regard to the nature of the assent owed to the truths set forth by the Church as divinely revealed (those of the first paragraph) or to be held definitively (those of the second paragraph), it is important to emphasize that there is no difference with respect to the full and irrevocable character of the assent which is owed to these teachings. - DOCTRINAL COMMENTARY ON THE CONCLUDING FORMULA OF THE PROFESSIO FIDEI Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
So your argument is that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that such is that assuredly infallible magisterium?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.