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To: wbarmy; Salvation
But wbarmy: isn't Christ omnipresent? because He is God? And so any "lack" of His presence is a lack on *our* side (not recognizing, not perceiving, the grossness of our fallenness obscuring our vision) and thus acts of devotion and prayer "make Him present" to us. To *us*. To our awareness.

And as an icon is made with prayer (this is vey big with icon-"writers", who fast and pray when they are making them), and perceived in a prayerful gaze, the icon truly "mediates" His presence. Not because it is a magical amulet, but precisely because it is a part of our consciousness of prayer.

In actual reality, He is everywhere. There is so place where He is not.

And as for a devotional gesture: ot is like a husband kissing a photo of his wife who has passed away. It is not that he loves that piece of printed paper, but that the picture "mediates" her presence; his kiss of the picture "mediates" the love in his heart.

6 posted on 08/05/2016 8:04:42 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“And as an icon is made with prayer (this is vey big with icon-”writers”, who fast and pray when they are making them), and perceived in a prayerful gaze, the icon truly “mediates” His presence.”

I side firmly with Tertullian on this. It matters not what they are crafting, or what is in their hearts when they do it:

“But when the devil introduced into the world artificers of statues and of images, and of every kind of likenesses, that former rude business of human disaster attained from idols both a name and a development. Thenceforward every art which in any way produces an idol instantly became a fount of idolatry. For it makes no difference whether a moulder cast, or a carver grave, or an embroiderer weave the idol; because neither is it a question of material, whether an idol be formed of gypsum, or of colors, or of stone, or of bronze, or of silver, or of thread. For since even without an idol idolatry is committed, when the idol is there it makes no difference of what kind it be, of what material, or what shape; lest any should think that only to be held an idol which is consecrated in human shape. To establish this point, the interpretation of the word is requisite. Eidos, in Greek, signifies form; eidolon, derived diminutively from that, by an equivalent process in our language, makes formling. Every form or formling, therefore, claims to be called an idol.” Tertullian, “On Idolatry”, Chapter 3

Tertullian also addressed the complaints of artisans who had formerly crafted idols but had now joined the church, and were pleading that they couldn’t abandon their livelihood. He could have easily advised them to start making images and icons of a Christian nature to sell instead, but no, he did NOT give them that advice:

“In vain do we flatter ourselves as to the necessities of human maintenance, if— after faith sealed — we say, “I have no means to live?” For here I will now answer more fully that abrupt proposition. It is advanced too late. For after the similitude of that most prudent builder, who first computes the costs of the work, together with his own means, lest, when he has begun, he afterwards blush to find himself spent, deliberation should have been made before. But even now you have the Lord’s sayings, as examples taking away from you all excuse. For what is it you say? “I shall be in need.” But the Lord calls the needy “happy.” Luke 6:20 “I shall have no food.” But “think not,” says He, “about food;” and as an example of clothing we have the lilies. “My work was my subsistence.” Nay, but “all things are to be sold, and divided to the needy.” “But provision must be made for children and posterity.” “None, putting his hand on the plough, and looking back, is fit” for work. “But I was under contract.” “None can serve two lords.” If you wish to be the Lord’s disciple, it is necessary you “take your cross, and follow the Lord:” your cross; that is, your own straits and tortures, or your body only, which is after the manner of a cross. Parents, wives, children, will have to be left behind, for God’s sake. Do you hesitate about arts, and trades, and about professions likewise, for the sake of children and parents?” Tertullian, “On Idolatry”, Chapter 12

If it was proper for artisans to start making Christian icons instead, I’m sure Tertullian would have given them that advise instead of telling them to take up their cross and bear it for God’s sake.

The good news is, we have no need of icons to mediate for us:

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” 1 Timothy 2:5


8 posted on 08/05/2016 8:33:38 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Very nice analogies and they are very sweet.

But the Bible in Exodus 20:4 is very explicit. And Paul’s sermon on Mars Hill expounds upon that.

Our feelings should have nothing to do with it.


35 posted on 08/05/2016 2:57:20 PM PDT by wbarmy (I chose to be a sheepdog once I saw what happens to the sheep.)
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