Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: daniel1212
Actually, all the terms are synonymous, as manifested by their interchangeable use in Scripture.

Actually, though sometimes interchangeable when invested in the roles of one person, they are not synonomous. So I don't see their function as equivalent, necessarily. There is much to be said about this, but once the term poime (by interpretation "pastor") as related to Jesus the Anointed and Great Shepherd is sheared away, there is not much left of that save the term when used in Eph. 4:11.

And, applying the Granville Sharp Rule, the pastors are a separate group from the teachers (the διδασκαλοι didaskaloi), and that doesn't leave much room for them. Now, the literal pastors of the first local church, the prototype at Jerusalem, were the seven deacons. It was in their care that the administration of the physical needs--the food, clothing, and quarters--was placed. They were chosen from the people by the people, to be designated (not ordained) to this new office by the authority of the twelve Disciple-Apostle-Elders.

That ministry was separated so that the twelve could give themselves continually over to the ministry of the Word and prayer, which would be the figurative "feeding" of the spiritual needs of the "flock" of the assembly (as well as each other), which is--now guess, eh?--teaching. Thus, this asrrangement defined who the pastors and teachers were, and what they did.

So who are the pastors in Eph. 4:11? If the office of deacon is not comprised by "pastor" there is no place for the deacon, is there? Oh, there is One and Only administrative Pastor, a Shepherd over all, and that is Jesus Christ (Comforter 1, in Heaven), and His Holy Spirit (Comforter 2, on earth and indwelling the sheepies, all of them).

For the moment leaving the issue of episkopoi and presbuteroi aside, let's look at Simon Peter, especially in the interim period after the Resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit, after Jesus had breathed the Holy Spirit on the apostles, but not into them.

At breakfast on the Lake of Galilee, Jesus spoke to the persona Simon bar Jonah (not to pal "Peter"), "Lovest (agapao, to sovereignly prefer above self and others) thou Me more than these?" (meaning, it is supposed, the tackle, nets, boats, his fellow disciple-sportsmen, and the livelihood of fishing).

Peter responded, "Yeah, Lord, you are aware that I have a brotherly affection (phileo) for You." Peter is actually ducking the issue of being sold out, lock, stock, and barrel to Jesus as his sole center of attention, faith, and service. Though he may be now able to see that, having deeply failed Jesus despite his verbal commitment to the death, he might now shy away from this offer of being reinvested in the Company of The Faithful Ones.

So Jesus addresses that matter by extending an offer of re-employment, commanding Peter, "Feed My baby sheep."

Here's the dynamic of this interchange: Calling to mind His teaching in John 10, Jesus is the shepherd and the supplier of the food, but He's going out to a far country. Peter, not as a hireling (12-13) but as a "porter" with the keys to the fold (Jn. 10:3) and as a friend (Jn. 15:15), is commanded to "feed" the lambs of the flock (1 Pet. 2:2,3) while the Shepherd is away. Here, he is given the task of getting little new lambs to suckle on their mother ewes, getting the "milk" of the Gospel, which is sustaining the saving faith until full assurance is a real felt experience, and the stronger food of discernment is in the offing (Heb. 5:13-14).

You see the analogy, do you not? There is only one Spiritual Pastor, One Shepherd (Jn. 10:16). A teacher is just a nurse for the little spiritual babes, a mower who distributes hay for the weak ones, and shows the stronger where to graze. He's a freely enlisted friend of the Master Teacher, but in the assembly, a presbuteros, even perhaps an episkopos if he is apt to teach (1 Tim. 3:2). Eh?

Jesus continues to encourage Peter, repeating, "Simon bar Jonah, agapao thou Me??"

Peter, still eluding commitment, responds, "Lord, yes, you see that I love You as a a brother, right?" (with, it might be surmised, a "don't You?" as the prevailing tone). This second invitation to commit being rebuffed, Jesus issues another command: Then finally, for the third time, Jesus relents and gives him even greater responsibility,since Peter--though reticent--has not refused the lesser duties. Jesus extends this offer on a different basis: "Simon bar Jonah, do you really love me as a brother?"

To which Peter, with grievous passion exclaims, "Lord, you perceive everything! You understand that I love you like family!" Wherein Jesus gives him the figurative task of teaching, of being an experienced elder, spiritually mature, a presbuteros, "Feed My sheep." The Word is figuratively the pasture, and the sheep can either find their own grass, or if too weak to help themselves, to cut some grass and put it before them so they can get stronger and feed themselves.

That is, be a teacher of my spiritually mature young men and "fathers" in strong meat of doctrine, service, and bearing the cross unto death. As a presbuteros Peter would not forsake the needs of the assembly and "go a-fishing." He woyuld be present as a didaslalos as they gather together to teach everything whatsoever he had heard Jesus command, and show them how to watchfully keep the Word secure without change or gratuitous embroidery with human traditions.

The functions of pastor, episkopos, and presbuteros are not truly interchangeable, and most certainly are not equivalent, nor are they at all synonomous. To think so is dramatically wrong. Even Peter did not call himself a pastor or a bishop. He denominated himself as an elder among elders, and wrote of this in his old age in his letter to the Diaspora of Jews and Christians. For this, Please read 1 Peter 5:1-11, and come to terms with the fact that the common current church manifestation of rule is so way out of balance, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or Baptist, that none of such congregations are any longer effective of prospering in their worldly-oriented polities. They need to be restored to the New Testament model.

The deacons diakonoi, when functioning scripturally, are the pastors literally serving and managing the physical needs of the constituents of the assembly, exclusively.

The episkopos is the business manager and ruler of the physical plant, the personnel relationships, and interactions with the worldly community. An elder with limited sphere of operations, he may be and probable wouldn't be the eldest in age or spirituality, but should be appointed by the congregants and answerable to the recognized spiritual elders.

The presbuteroi, the elders, have responsibility for the teaching of the assembly, especially as directed toward one-on-one or one-on- or -very few disciple-making and training in the never-ending process of bringing constituents to full stature in the Lord, following the Great Commission in detail, and making the recruitment of new disciples the overruling concern for even having an assembly.

The church's sphere of influence on and with other similar assemblies should be friendly, but distant as regarding determining the conduct of another group. Each local assembly is scripturally meant to be autonomous, not "catholic" in polity nor engaging in attempts to rule beyond the local church. With regretful respect ---

imardmd1 = "I'M A ReDeeMeD 1 (= one)"

"Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom He hath redeemed from the hand of the Enemy."

260 posted on 04/29/2016 3:37:14 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 255 | View Replies ]


To: imardmd1
Actually, though sometimes interchangeable when invested in the roles of one person, they are not synonomous....The functions of pastor, episkopos, and presbuteros are not truly interchangeable, and most certainly are not equivalent, nor are they at all synonomous. To think so is dramatically wrong.

But which you fail to establish, and which is contrary to the evidence otherwise which you hardly interact with, as your argumentation is much that of assertions and arguments that the texts do not teach.

And, applying the Granville Sharp Rule, the pastors are a separate group from the teachers (the διδασκαλοι didaskaloi), and that doesn't leave much room for them.

They are a separate group, as are apostles from teachers, and we see in Acts 13:1 that there were "certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen," but (applying the rule against a false dilemma) pastors being listed separate from teachers does not mean pastors do not teach and do not have much "room" for ministry any more than apostles being separate from pastors and teachers means they do not engage in both. Nor does it mean that the persons in each office could not have more than one gift.

But as per the term, the main function of pastors is to shepherd the flock: "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine" (1 Timothy 5:17) They need not have the gift of teaching, but they still must be able to. For while apostles were the chief pastors, and deacons in some sense also pastured, yet the apostles appointed presbuteros/episkopos to "take care of the church of God" (1Tim. 3:5) thus requiring them being "apt to teach" and threby "feed the flock" with the word of God as its overseers, (Acts 20:28,32) and to "reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine," (2 Timothy 4:2) and to whom obedience is enjoined. (Heb. 13:17) This is incontrovertible, and which pastoring is not said of deacons, while you have not shown why presbuteros/episkopos does not refer to the same persons, as Scripture shows they did.

Now, the literal pastors of the first local church, the prototype at Jerusalem, were the seven deacons.

Which assertion can only mean that they help the head pastors in ministering to temporal needs, though as with Phillip, such could also function as evangelists. But it is clear that besides apostles, presbuteros/episkopos are the ones charged with teaching and functioning as pastors of the flock.

That ministry was separated so that the twelve could give themselves continually over to the ministry of the Word and prayer, which would be the figurative "feeding" of the spiritual needs of the "flock" of the assembly (as well as each other), which is--now guess, eh?--teaching. Thus, this asrrangement defined who the pastors and teachers were, and what they did.

For the moment leaving the issue of episkopoi and presbuteroi aside,

You left them aside for sure, only to later leap to asserting that episkopos, and presbuteros are not truly interchangeable, equivalent, synonomous despite the fact that this is what the Holy Spirit describes them as being.

So who are the pastors in Eph. 4:11? If the office of deacon is not comprised by "pastor" there is no place for the deacon, is there?

No, as again, besides apostles it is clear that presbuteros/episkopos are described and charged with functioning as pastors. The best you can say is that the term pastors no more excludes presbuteros than it excludes deacons, but the latter are not the ones shown or described spiritually pastoring the flock.

[Peter] is commanded to "feed" the lambs of the flock (1 Pet. 2:2,3) while the Shepherd is away. Here, he is given the task of getting little new lambs to suckle on their mother ewes, getting the "milk" of the Gospel, which is sustaining the saving faith until full assurance is a real felt experience, and the stronger food of discernment is in the offing (Heb. 5:13-14). You see the analogy, do you not? There is only one Spiritual Pastor, One Shepherd (Jn. 10:16). A teacher is just a nurse for the little spiritual babes, a mower who distributes hay for the weak ones, and shows the stronger where to graze.

Wrong, as presbuteros/episkopos are clearly described as shepherding the flock, as its overseers. And which includes rebuking rebellious souls sharply, (Titus 1:13) as well as leaders who sin. (1Tim. 5:20)

As a presbuteros Peter would not forsake the needs of the assembly and "go a-fishing." He woyuld be present as a didaslalos as they gather together to teach everything whatsoever he had heard Jesus command,

But presbuteros are the ones charged with teaching and spiritually pastoring under the apostles, and nowhere are deacons charged with teaching, but they minister, and the word is even used for a female who ministered, (Rm. 16:1) but not by teaching men.

The functions of pastor, episkopos, and presbuteros are not truly interchangeable, and most certainly are not equivalent, nor are they at all synonomous. To think so is dramatically wrong.

Which is just as baseless and absurd as it was the first time someone said it, and your laborious description of Peter or the preceding utterly fails to teach what you assert. Titus is charged by Paul to ordain presbuteros in every city, and which are called episkopos, (Titus 1:5,7) and gives Timothy the requirements for episkopos, taking care of the church, as he did in keeping his own children in subjection, (1Tim, 3:1-7) and goes on state that presbuteros who rule well are to be counted worthy of double honour. (1Tim. 5:17) Paul calls all the Ephesian presbuteros together and charges them with feeding the flock as its episkopos, (Acts 20;17,32) never inferring any distinction btwn the two, but showing that episkopos are presbuteros and presbuteros are episkopos.

Please read 1 Peter 5:1-11, and come to terms with the fact that the common current church manifestation of rule is so way out of balance, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or Baptist, that none of such congregations are any longer effective of prospering in their worldly-oriented polities. They need to be restored to the New Testament model.

It is aberrant teaching as yours that gives Rome ammunition. While all the above have problems, with Catholicism being in its own class, esp. Rome, the main theme in your ecclesiology is that of rejection of authority. However, as said, Paul charges pastors to "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine," (2 Timothy 4:2) "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee," (Titus 2:15) and the writer of Hebrews charges, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17)

The deacons diakonoi, when functioning scripturally, are the pastors literally serving and managing the physical needs of the constituents of the assembly, exclusively.

Which is simply not what they are charged with or described as as doing, as instead the only description of their duties was to take care of the physical feeding, though some as Philip also functioned as evangelists. You whole eisegesis seems driven by an animus against authority.

The episkopos is the business manager and ruler of the physical plant, the personnel relationships, and interactions with the worldly community.

Which simply more reading into the text what is not there, as while they are to have a good testimony, their active functions are to care for the church, and be "apt to teach," and "feed the flock," rebuke, exhort," etc. as shown.

A bishop [episkopos] then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) (1 Timothy 3:2-5)

The presbuteroi, the elders, have responsibility for the teaching of the assembly, especially as directed toward one-on-one or one-on- or -very few disciple-making and training in the never-ending process of bringing constituents to full stature in the Lord, following the Great Commission in detail, and making the recruitment of new disciples the overruling concern for even having an assembly.

As shown, presbuteroi are charged with feeding the flock as its episkopos, (Acts 20:28,32) and the terms are elsewhere shown to be synonymous, and never in any manifest distinction, despite the desire of some to see such.

Each local assembly is scripturally meant to be autonomous, not "catholic" in polity nor engaging in attempts to rule beyond the local church.

And how do you get this out of Acts 15? Granted, the limited unity of the NT church was under clearly abundantly manifest men of God, (2Co. 6:4-10; 12:12) of Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, and Rome's so-called apostolic successors even fail of the qualifications and credentials of manifest Biblical apostles. (Acts 1:21,22; 1Cor. 9:1; Gal. 1:11,12) but the principal of consensual centralized leadership, in scope as far as practical, with the veracity of its judgments resting upon the degree of Scriptural substantiation, is certainly what is Scriptural and a goal to be sought, despite the Roman abomination of it. A lot of autonomous churches of variegated variant beliefs, and so that heretics can jump from one to another, is not.

261 posted on 04/29/2016 6:44:29 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 260 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson