[aMorePerfectUnion]

You are very much mistaken. You continually conflate legitimate acts of respect (veneration) with prohibited acts of idolatry. I am sorry to say this, but your arguments, no matter how lengthy, all fail to "connect" because you do not make this very basic, all-important distinction.

We will have to disagree. First, it should be obvious that respect is different than veneration. It also grieves my heart when I see (protestants) who substitute the Bible for the God who wrote the Bible. That too, falls short of what God wants. It is equally true that many traditionalists substitute cherished traditions (they often grew up with), for worship of Him alone.

Biblical history shows humans regularly move from legitimate worship to idolatry. It is the fallen human condition of the heart.

The burning of incense to the bronze snake was condemned by God and the snake destroyed - despite being ordered into creation by God. Under your argument, it should have been venerated because it was associated with God. It was destroyed because it was venerated instead of God. It became idolatry and was judged. There was no legitimate veneration of the bronze serpent.

This despite the fact is was created under the most significant leader of Israel - Moses, "giver of the law."

Second, your argument about the Ark of the Covenant assumes people venerated the Ark. They did not. Everything they did was commanded by God. They did not bow down and venerate the staff of Aaron. They bowed down to a Holy God who provided a way to forgive their sins - despite their rebellion. Your argument also misses that they were being obedient to a command from God - not the desire of the fallen heart to gather things up and fall before them - like bones, thorns, mother's milk and other silly relics.

As such, the two arguments you put forward - items in the Ark and cloths used to heal - had nothing to do with veneration.

You cannot support your truth claim with arguments from Scripture that have nothing to do with your claim. This mixes apples and oranges and contains the implicit assumption that they are identical, so the former justifies the latter. They are not identical and because of this, the former never justifies the latter.

Their holiness is secondary and derivative. HIS holiness is primary, unique, sui generis. I think we both see that.

Their holiness (being set apart) is never a reason to venerate them. We do not bow before them. We do not burn incense to them (as Israel did to the snake), we do not melt down precious metals and create statues to bow down to. God alone is worthy of worship.

The line between "veneration" and worship is one of the shortest lines. This is why God repeatedly and severely condemns crossing that line. He doesn't just condemn heart worship that is unseen to the human eye. He condemns body position - bowing, and acts of worship - burning incense. He condemns images, statues, sacred stones, etc. And tellingly, He condemns even the prostration and incense before the bronze snake He Himself ordered into existence.

In all the history of mankind, after the Garden of Eden and the Fall, people fall into idolatry as a matter of course - even with the things God has either commanded or created. This is why the warnings are so strong:

"Little children, keep yourselves from idolatry."

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, Ex 20:5

[note: neither bow down nor worship - both included]

Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. Ex 23:24

"'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God. Lev 26:1

"I will cut off your carved images And your sacred pillars from among you, So that you will no longer bow down To the work of your hands. Micah 5:13

You have an argument that you have not provided Biblical support for. I am listing many verses (out of a greater universe of similar verses in Scripture) that prohibit bowing to created things. The bronze snake is the most telling. It was ordered into creation by God. It performed a function of healing ordered and empowered by God. The people burned incense to it. God understood their hearts - that this was an act of worship to a good thing made into an idol - taking the place of God Himself.

Here is a similar modern day example from a church:

Cardinal Bretone (I've seen him identified as) offering incense to the blood of John Paul II.

Always wrong. These acts fail to go directly to God and are as old as the Fall and expulsion from the Garden and are idolatry - substituting a created thing for the One True God, who is a jealous God. As such, they are not Christian. They are pagan worship.

There are no examples of Apostles offering incense to relics, departed saints, etc. You won't find it in the inspired NT Scriptures. You won't find it in Christian art before 100ad. You won't find it as a Christian practice, written about anywhere before 100ad - Christian or secular.

You will find it in pagan history - over the milennia - in their art, writings, etc.

And of course, you will find it condemned by God in Scripture in both Testaments.

[Mrs. Don-o]

By the definition you yourself posted, "veneration" means also to revere. Reference to more detailed dictionaries will show that the meaning of "veneration" is not a single point, but a semantic field --- most words, by the way, cover extensive semantic fields, i.e. they have more than one definition ---- and the meaning is determined by the context and the intent of the speaker.

Even the use of incense is not, per se, an act of adoration, but of (in the broader sense) veneration. In the majority of Christian congregations both now and through the last 20 centuries, incense has been used to signify the setting apart of people, places, and objects associated with the worship of God.

Just over this weekend, at the Easter Vigil, literally hundreds of millions of Christians saw incense wafted upon altars, Gospel books, lectionaries, vestments, all the clergy on the altar, and the entire congregation. It does not mean we worship or idolize this book, this table, this article of clothing: it means we dedicate them to God.

See tagline, if you please.

It would be most reasonable for you accept our own explanation of our own actions, and not to impose your own. You have no call to appoint yourself the arbiter of things which you don't actually understand. We, and not you, are the proper interpreters of what we think, say, and mean.