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Can Society Determine Right and Wrong?
Catholic Answers ^ | March 15, 2016 | Karlo Broussard

Posted on 03/19/2016 3:12:27 PM PDT by NYer

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1 posted on 03/19/2016 3:12:27 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Tax-chick; GregB; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; tiki; Salvation; ...

Catholic ping!


2 posted on 03/19/2016 3:12:52 PM PDT by NYer (Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy them. Mt 6:19)
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To: NYer

“When there are no absolutes to govern society, society becomes the absolute.”——Francis Shaeffer

A perfect case in point.


3 posted on 03/19/2016 3:17:42 PM PDT by Fungi
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To: NYer

Right is that which is in conformity with our human nature. Our human nature informs every atom and every cell. It is not subject to change by governments.


4 posted on 03/19/2016 3:29:16 PM PDT by I want the USA back (The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it. Orwell.)
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To: NYer

Very good. I’m a big fan of presenting an argument that is both succinct and rational. Bravo.


5 posted on 03/19/2016 3:31:33 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.)
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To: NYer

Humans operate from cost versus benefit.
Morality/gods are constructs to make us versus them, so it must benefit,but everything has a downside to it.

Example: would Hitler getting aborted been moral,would assassinating him been moral and just at any point in his time line? How about if his parents were killed?


6 posted on 03/19/2016 3:41:27 PM PDT by HWGruene (REMEMBER THE ALAMO! Really, no kidding.)
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To: NYer

Without moral law, the rule is, if it feels good, do it.


7 posted on 03/19/2016 3:42:39 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: NYer

I believe there is a reason God tells us of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. Also His admonition not to eat thereof, lest we would surely die.

Every human being now has that knowledge in them.

It is a fundamental problem, because that ability to discern good and evil, is too easily confused as a counterfeit substitute for our direct relationship with God through faith in Christ. As soon as we slip into that reliance, instead of through faith in Christ first, we fall out of fellowship with Him.

It manifests the nature of sin.

One step removed, morality can either be used as a counterfeit substitute for being in fellowship with Him, or it can scar us into legalism and good works without faith, which are simply good for nothingness in His Plan.


8 posted on 03/19/2016 3:49:04 PM PDT by Cvengr ( Adversity in life & death is inevitable; Stress is optional through faith in Christ.)
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To: I want the USA back

These quotes may be relevant.

“The law of nature and the law of revelation are both Divine: they flow, though in different channels, from the same adorable source. It is indeed preposterous to separate them from each other.”

— James Wilson (of the Law of Nature, 1804)

“To grant that there is a supreme intelligence who rules the
world and has established laws to regulate the actions of his creatures; and still to assert that man, in a state of nature, may be considered as perfectly free from all restraints of law and government, appears to a common understanding altogether irreconcilable. Good and wise men, in all ages, have embraced a very dissimilar theory. They have supposed that the deity, from the relations we stand in to himself and to each other, has constituted an eternal and immutable law, which is indispensably obligatory upon all mankind, prior to any human institution
whatever. This is what is called the law of nature....Upon this law depend the natural rights of mankind.”

— Alexander Hamilton


9 posted on 03/19/2016 3:53:34 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Half the truth is often a great lie. B. Franklin)
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To: NYer

In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.


10 posted on 03/19/2016 4:02:35 PM PDT by Scrambler Bob (As always, /s is implicitly assumed. Unless explicitly labled /not s. Saves keystrokes.)
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To: SaraJohnson

Which morality?
All of it is cost vs. benefit.
The benefit must equal or be greater than the cost, or morality flew out the window.


11 posted on 03/19/2016 4:03:05 PM PDT by HWGruene (REMEMBER THE ALAMO! Really, no kidding.)
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To: NYer
"There is a consensus about ... right and wrong: a consensus that prevails surprisingly widely”

You mean like homosexuality, a practice that is almost universally condemned in every society around the globe and has been for all of recorded history, but that is now being labeled as "normal"?

12 posted on 03/19/2016 4:05:37 PM PDT by IronJack
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To: NYer
Ultimately, these relativists end up defeating their own arguments, since they argue that their relativism is an absolute.

"God does not exist" is an absolute statement.

13 posted on 03/19/2016 4:07:56 PM PDT by IronJack
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To: IronJack

Deeming something abnormal that has been around for all of recorded history belabors the definition of ‘normal.’


14 posted on 03/19/2016 4:10:24 PM PDT by sparklite2 ( "The white man is the Jew of Liberal Fascism." -Jonah Goldberg)
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To: NYer
""But the most remarkable thing is this. whenever you find a man who says he does not believe in a real right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later. He may break his promise to you, but if you try breaking on to him he will be complaining 'It's not fair' before you can say Jack Robinson. A nation may say treaties do not matter, but then, next minute, they spoil their case by saying that the particular treaty they want to break was an unfair one. But if treaties do not matter, and if there iis no such ting as Right and Wrong--in other words, if there is no Law of Nature--what is the difference between a fair treaty and an unfair one? Have they not let the cat out of the bag and shown that, whatever they say, they really know the Law of Nature just like anyone else?""

~CS Lewis

15 posted on 03/19/2016 4:11:05 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: NYer

“consensus” is just another way of saying “mob rule”.

Another reason to appreciate our founders framework of a the US being a republic - not a democracy.


16 posted on 03/19/2016 4:15:19 PM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: Cvengr

“I believe there is a reason God tells us of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. Also His admonition not to eat thereof, lest we would surely die.”

So what you are saying is god left a loaded .45 on the table in reach of people that knew no sin, therefore innocent.

“Every human being now has that knowledge in them.’

Do you mean after he told those innocents what would happen,or before?

“It is a fundamental problem, because that ability to discern good and evil, is too easily confused as a counterfeit substitute for our direct relationship with God through faith in Christ. As soon as we slip into that reliance, instead of through faith in Christ first, we fall out of fellowship with Him.”

Are you saying that you have no proof of god? Proof always denies the need for faith like “checks in the mail.”

“It manifests the nature of sin.”
What is the biblical definition of sin?

“One step removed, morality can either be used as a counterfeit substitute for being in fellowship with Him, or it can scar us into legalism and good works without faith, which are simply good for nothingness in His Plan.”

How do you prove what you claim to be true, true?
Just curious.


17 posted on 03/19/2016 4:18:53 PM PDT by HWGruene (REMEMBER THE ALAMO! Really, no kidding.)
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To: NYer; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; kinsman redeemer; BlueDragon; metmom; boatbums; ...
When discerning appropriate human behavior, we must ask, “What is good for man?” The answer to that question is found in human nature. Human nature is inherently directed to certain ends or goals and the achievement of those goals is what constitutes human flourishing (e.g., self-preservation, knowledge of the truth, propagation and education of the species, and social existence). Therefore, correct human behavior—that which is good for man as such—is behavior that allows and helps human nature to achieve those ends. It is this standard of human nature from which morality must be derived in order for it to be rational and truly objective. Of course, for such a law to be morally obligatory, there must be a transcendent being from which human nature derives it dignity, i.e., God. But that’s for another time!

Another time indeed, as atheists can argue that correct human behavior is that which is good for man to achieve self-preservation, knowledge of the truth, propagation and education of the species, and social existence...

It is what ultimately defines these things that is the issue. Stalin and the like would argue achieving these goals required their policies, as would popes who required the extermination of those Rome decreed were heretics, as did early Prots.

However, at least the latter could appeal to a document that came to be established as the supreme s wholly God-inspired standard on faith and morality, bue to its Divine qualities and attestation, even though, as with a Constitution, it can be subject to varying degrees of interpretation.

In contrast, in atheism the individual is the supreme standard, not simply in deciding he will assent to one and interpret it, but atheism collectively rejects any one sure and supreme standard, and each can autocratically assert his own morality is superior to all moral documents, even that of God.

18 posted on 03/19/2016 4:22:23 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: daniel1212

If an atheist can do all that, then god becomes just some powerless pitiful ineffectual being. How sad.


19 posted on 03/19/2016 4:29:10 PM PDT by HWGruene (REMEMBER THE ALAMO! Really, no kidding.)
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To: HWGruene

Which morality?


The morality of Western civilization. Ever hear of that?


20 posted on 03/19/2016 4:33:51 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
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