Mary, Mother of God

The Sacred Page ^ | December 29, 2015

[daniel1212]

Catholicism was founded by Christ, on the apostles.....the EXACT year is up for grabs.

But at least twice you said it was 2016 years ago, which i called you on. At least now it is up for graps, or rather grasps. For as many RCs basically admit, the church that became Catholicism was a result of a process, while if we look for it in the NT revelation of the church then it is basically invisible.

[daniel1212]

They are looking for sex without the risk of pregnancy, which would make it for pleasure only.

Well, despite all the talk about the faith of the "fathers" at least they do not go as far as the likes of Jerome and Augustine on this issue.

[daniel1212]

Catholics make, but do not worship.

One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them

Which manner of adulation would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

Cathsshould only do (and I should do more of) what Mary and every believer in Scripture did in praying to Heaven, which was to pray directly to the Lord, not saintly secretaries. But they must truly become born again for that.

Instead, Caths basically say,

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes... (Jeremiah 44:16-17)

[The Cuban]

Wow talk about faulty reasoning. So you say the Bible says something it clearly does not and that the HS says something else and that something else is what yoi claim the words mean even though the words say something else but that both are the same exact thing. What????

[The Cuban]

Read your posts. Thank you for convincing me of the Correctness of the Catholic faith. I don’t k ow who you think you can convince otherwise with that.

[daniel1212]

Of course not, but with their HAND copied books, libraries throughout the world, Monasteries,parishes, schools...they certainly advanced it.. Actually they also hindered literacy of Scripture due to the lack of prioritizing literacy among the laity and having Scripture available in their own tongue and then placing strong restrictions on personal reading of it when it was available. Unlike the past, and in which Chrysostom exhort personal reading of Scripture and evidences it was available.

Chrysostom states in Homily 2 on Matthew

For, tell me, who of you that stand here, if he were required, could repeat one Psalm, or any other portion of the divine Scriptures? There is not one.

And it is not this only that is the grievous thing, but that while you have become so backward with respect to things spiritual, yet in regard of what belongs to Satan you are more vehement than fire. Thus should any one be minded to ask of you songs of devils and impure effeminate melodies, he will find many that know these perfectly, and repeat them with much pleasure.

10. But what is the answer to these charges? "I am not," you will say, "one of the monks, but I have both a wife and children, and the care of a household." Why, this is what has ruined all, your supposing that the reading of the divine Scriptures appertains to those only, when you need it much more than they. For they that dwell in the world, and each day receive wounds, these have most need of medicines. So that it is far worse than not reading, to account the thing even "superfluous:" for these are the words of diabolical invention. Hear ye not Paul saying, "that all these things are written for our admonition"? 1 Corinthians 10:11

And you, if you had to take up a Gospel, would not choose to do so with hands unwashed; but the things that are laid up within it, do you not think to be highly necessary? It is because of this, that all things are turned upside down.

For if you would learn how great is the profit of the Scriptures, examine yourself, what you become by hearing Psalms, and what by listening to a song of Satan; and how you are disposed when staying in a Church, and how when sitting in a theatre; and you will see that great is the difference between this soul and that, although both be one

• Chrysostom on Col. 3:16,

Let it dwell in you,” he saith, “richly,” not simply dwell, but with great abundance. Hearken ye, as many as are worldly, and have the charge of wife and children; how to you too he commits especially the reading of the Scriptures and that not to be done lightly, nor in any sort of way, but with much earnestness...

Tarry not, I entreat, for another to teach thee; thou hast the oracles of God. No man teacheth thee as they; for he indeed oft grudgeth much for vainglory’s sake and envy. Hearken, I entreat you, all ye that are careful for this life, and 301procure books that will be medicines for the soul. If ye will not any other, yet get you at least the New Testament, the Apostolic Epistles, the Acts, the Gospels, for your constant teachers...

This is the cause of all evils, the not knowing the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe? - Homily IX. Colossians iii. 16, 17

• Also, in Homily XX on Ephesians by Chrysostom,

If thus we regulate ourselves, and attentively study the Scriptures, in most things we shall derive instruction from them. And thus shall be able to please God, and to pass through the whole of the present life virtuously, and to attain those blessings which are promised to those that love Him, of which God grant that we may all be counted worthy, through the grace and lovingkindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, with Whom, together with the Holy Ghost, be unto the Father, glory, power, and honor, now, and ever, through all ages. Amen.

• As for Jerome (who did emphasize the need for teachers), no less than POPE BENEDICT XV, while placing the priority on ecclesiastics being Scripturally literate, includes all, asserting in in SPIRITUS PARACLITUS,

Jerome - "strenuous Catholic, learned in the Scriptures,"[2] "teacher of Catholics,"[3] "model of virtue, world's teacher"[4] - has by his earnest and illuminative defense of Catholic doctrine on Holy Scripture left us most precious instructions. These we propose to set before you and so promote among the children of the Church, and especially among the clergy, assiduous and reverent study of the Bible — http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xv/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xv_enc_15091920_spiritus-paraclitus_en.html

But see later .

As the The Douay–Rheims Bible preface states,

Which translation we do not for all that publish, upon erroneous opinion of necessity, that the Holy Scriptures should always be in our mother tongue, or that they ought, or were ordained by God, to be read impartially by all, or could be easily understood by every one that readeth or heareth them in a known language; or that they were not often through man's malice or infirmity, pernicious and much hurtful to many; or that we generally and absolutely deemed it more convenient in itself, and more agreeable to God's Word and honour or edification of the faithful, to have them turned into vulgar tongues, than to be kept and studied only in the Ecclesiastical learned languages. (http://www.bombaxo.com/douai-nt.html)

[Iscool]

Tarry not, I entreat, for another to teach thee; thou hast the oracles of God. No man teacheth thee as they; for he indeed oft grudgeth much for vainglory’s sake and envy.

And Catholics accuse this guy of being Catholic...He was no more Catholic than Buggs Bunny...Chrysostom, as the rest of the early church Fathers was as 'Sola Scripture' as they come...

Chrysostom says don't trust your priest, bishop, pope or magisterium to tell you the truth...You have the truth in front of you, read it!!!

Chrysostom destroys the idea that people can't understand the scriptures and must be suject to some religion's interpretation of the scriptures...

This is the cause of all evils, the not knowing the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how ought we to come off safe?

[Elsie]

Genesis 38:8-10   Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

⁸ Juda, therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

⁹ He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother's name.

¹⁰ And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

 

 

HMMMmmm...

 

 

Leviticus 18 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:

² Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them: I am the Lord your God.

³ You shall not do according to the custom of the land of Egypt, in which you dwelt: neither shall you act according to the manner of the country of Chanaan, into which I will bring you, nor shall you walk in their ordinances.

⁴ You shall do my judgments, and shall observe my precepts, and shall walk in them. I am the Lord your God.

⁵ Keep my laws and my judgments, which if a man do, he shall live in them. I am the Lord.

⁶ No man shall approach to her that is near of kin to him, to uncover her nakedness. I am the Lord.

⁷ Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother: she is thy mother, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

⁸ Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's wife: for it is the nakedness of thy father.

⁹ Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy sister by father or by mother, whether born at home or abroad.

¹⁰ Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy son's daughter, or thy daughter's daughter: because it is thy own nakedness.

¹¹ Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, whom she bore to thy father, and who is thy sister.

¹² Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: because she is the flesh of thy father.

¹³ Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: because she is thy mother's flesh.

¹⁴ Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother: neither shalt thou approach to his wife, who is joined to thee by affinity.

¹⁵ Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: because she is thy son's wife, neither shalt thou discover her shame.

¹⁶ Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: because it is the nakedness of thy brother.

¹⁷ Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy wife and her daughter. Thou shalt not take her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter, to discover her shame: because they are her flesh, and such copulation is incest.

¹⁸ Thou shalt not take thy wife's sister for a harlot, to rival her, neither shalt thou discover her nakedness, while she is yet living.

¹⁹ Thou shalt not approach to a woman having her flowers, neither shalt thou uncover her nakedness.

²⁰ Thou shalt not lie with thy neighbour's wife, nor be defiled with mingling of seed.

²¹ Thou shalt not give any of thy seed to be consecrated to the idol Moloch, nor defile the name of thy God: I am the Lord.

²² Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination.

²³ Thou shalt not copulate with any beast, neither shalt thou be defiled with it. A woman shall not lie down to a beast, nor copulate with it: because it is a heinous crime.

²⁴ Defile not yourselves with any of these things with which all the nations have been defiled, which I will cast out before you,

²⁵ And with which the land is defiled: the abominations of which I will visit, that it may vomit out its inhabitants.

²⁶ Keep ye my ordinances and my judgments, and do not any of these abominations: neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you.

²⁷ For all these detestable things the inhabitants of the land have done, that; were before you, and have defiled it.

²⁸ Beware then, lest in like manner, it vomit you also out, if you do the like things, as it vomited out the nation that was before you.

²⁹ Every soul that shall commit any of these abominations, shall perish from the midst of his people.

³⁰ Keep my commandments. Do not the things which they have done, that have been before you, and be not defiled therein. I am the Lord your God.

[Elsie]

No way for me to know, as I got there after the removal.

[Elsie]

Elderly St. Joseph in art

 

 

Elis to his most esteemed Carpus, very many greetings; and just WHY do the Romans insist

that Mary's husband was an old coot; needing Mary to emulate David's Abishag?

 

I find NOT his age mentioned in the writing's Rome has preserved.

[Elsie]

So you say the Bible says something it clearly does not...

Clearly?

---

Matthew 1:25

Douay-Rhiems Catholic Bible

 And he knew her not till she brought forth her first born son: and he called his name Jesus.

 

New International Version
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

 

 

[Elsie]

Which translation we do not for all that publish, upon erroneous opinion of necessity, that the Holy Scriptures should always be in our mother tongue, or that they ought, or were ordained by God, to be read impartially by all, or could be easily understood by every one that readeth or heareth them in a known language; or that they were not often through man's malice or infirmity, pernicious and much hurtful to many; or that we generally and absolutely deemed it more convenient in itself, and more agreeable to God's Word and honour or edification of the faithful, to have them turned into vulgar tongues, than to be kept and studied only in the Ecclesiastical learned languages.

(http://www.bombaxo.com/douai-nt.html)

We American's can NOT understand a sentence THIS long!

Perhaps Rome can break it into a lot of shorter one's for us to UNDERSTAND 'clearly'.

[rwa265]

If the premise is that sex without the chance for pregnancy is wrong

---

I, too, mistakenly thought the premise was that having sex without the chance for pregnancy is wrong. In reading Humanae Vitae, I found the premise was different. One may agree with it, or disagree with it, or mock it, or ridicule it, but my hope is that we learn from it, and our discussion can be based on what the Church actually teaches, and not on what it does not teach. Nevertheless, here is what part sixteen says:

16. Now as We noted earlier (no. 3), some people today raise the objection against this particular doctrine of the Church concerning the moral laws governing marriage, that human intelligence has both the right and responsibility to control those forces of irrational nature which come within its ambit and to direct them toward ends beneficial to man. Others ask on the same point whether it is not reasonable in so many cases to use artificial birth control if by so doing the harmony and peace of a family are better served and more suitable conditions are provided for the education of children already born. To this question We must give a clear reply. The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God.

If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)

Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html

[verga]

From the cathechism: 2331 "God is love and in himself he lives a mystery of personal loving communion. Creating the human race in his own image . . .. God inscribed in the humanity of man and woman the vocation, and thus the capacity and responsibility, of love and communion."115
"God created man in his own image . . . male and female he created them";116 He blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and multiply";117 "When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created."118
2332 Sexuality affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.
The Catholic teaching is that the marriage act is both unitive and procreative. It serves two functions. Human being arte not animals that go into rut at the drop of a hat, nor are they meant to be strictly breeders. 2333 Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. The harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out.

[metmom]

It’s all in the heart which was the focus on the Beatitude Jesus taught on the Sermon on the Mount.

In Matthew 23 He shredded the pharisees for doing the right thing with the wrong heart motive.

[metmom]

Which Catholic faith is correct?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_rites_and_churches

Alexandrian:
Coptic Rite
Ethiopic Rite

Antiochian:
Maronite Rite
(West) Syrian Rite
Malankara Rite

Armenian Rite:
Armenian Rite
Chaldean or East Syrian:
Chaldean Rite
Syro-Malabar Rite

Byzantine Rite (Constantinopolitan):
Byzantine

Latin (Western) liturgical rites:
Roman Rite
Pre-Tridentine Mass (the various pre-1570 forms)
Tridentine Mass
Mass of Paul VI

(Anglican Use
Ambrosian Rite
Rite of Braga
Mozarabic Rite
Catholic Order Rites (generally defunct):
Benedictine Rite
Carmelite Rite
Carthusian Rite
Cistercian Rite
Dominican Rite
Franciscan Rite
Friars Minor Capuchin Rite
Premonstratensian Rite
Servite Rite

Catholic autonomous particular Churches:
Latin Church with Latin liturgical traditions
Eastern Catholic Churches

Alexandrian liturgical tradition:
Coptic Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church
Eritrean Catholic Church

Antiochian liturgical tradition:
Maronite Church
Syrian Catholic Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church

Armenian liturgical tradition:
Armenian Catholic Church
Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
Chaldean Catholic Church
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church

Byzantine liturgical tradition:
Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church
Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
Byzantine Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro
Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
Melkite Greek Catholic Church
Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic
Russian Greek Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Slovak Greek Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church)

[Elsie]

Ain’t it Wunnerful how the INTENTIONS of Mary and Joseph can be conjured up from the penumbra of Catholic writings OTHER than the bible!

[metmom]

The differences between the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholicism. These differences are so important that there has been no reconciliation in nearly a thousand years after the split. The Eastern Orthodox differ with Roman Catholicism on these issues:

The Holy Spirit (the filioque)

In EO - The third person of the Trinity, proceeding from the Father alone as in the original Nicene Creed. The Father sends the Spirit at the intercession of the Son. The Son is therefore an agent only in the procession of the Spirit.

In RC - 'When the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, He is not separated from the Father, He is not separated from the Son'.

Mary - Assumption and Immaculate conception of

EO - The Assumption is accepted and it is agreed that Mary experienced physical death, but the Immaculate conception is rejected. Orthodox belief is that the guilt of original sin is not transmitted from one generation to the next, thus obviating the need for Mary to be sinless.

RC - Both are dogmas of the church. The church has not as yet decided whether Mary actually experienced Physical death. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception states that Mary, was at conception 'preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin' and should not be confused with the virgin birth.

Pope - Authority of

EO - As the Bishop of Rome, he has a primacy of honour when Orthodox, not of jurisdiction. At present, his primacy is not effective as the papacy needs to be reformed in accordance with Orthodoxy. His authority is thus no greater or lesser than any of his fellow Bishops in the church.

RC - The Pope is the 'Vicar of Christ' i.e. the visible head of the church on earth and spiritual successor of St. Peter. He has supreme authority (including that over church councils) within Christendom (The Power of the keys).

Pope - Infallibility of

EO - Papal Infallibility is rejected. The Holy Spirit acts to guide the church into truth through (for example) ecumenical councils. This Orthodoxy recognises the first seven ecumenical councils (325-787) as being infallible.

RC - The Pope is infallible when, through the Holy Spirit, he defines a doctrine on faith and morals that is to be held by the whole church. This is a dogma and is therefore a required belief within Catholicism.

Purgatory

EO - An intermediate state between earth and heaven is recognised, but cleansing and purification occur in this life, not the next.

RC - A place of cleansing and preparation for heaven. Also a place where the punishment due to unremitted venial sins may be expiated.

I'd say these were the "biggies", but other differences also exist. These are explained here.

http://christianityinview.com/comparison.html

Which version of Catholicism is correct?

[metmom]

Sure there is.......

FReepmail

[metmom]

Well, I’ve seen a fair number of FRoman Catholics condemn the idea of sex without the chance for procreation and yet defend NFP.

Seems more than a bit contradictory to me.