Posted on 12/06/2015 11:04:51 AM PST by daniel1212
No, that is not what I said. Why or how did you come to this conclusion? The lost are justly condemned because of the choices they made, though they could have chosen otherwise. Before his act, God reasoned with the first murderer, Cain, that while sin laid as his door so to speak, he could rule over it. (Gn. 4:7) But he did not. Those in Rm. 1 rejected the light they had, and turned to idols, and it was all downhill from there.
So being omniscient, he knows how much grace to give or give none at all but having some sin and some grace still condemns us to hell. Does God tell us how much grace or how much sin will be in our lives? Will he balance it like Ma’at did using a “feather†weighing whether a person will go to Aaru leading a virtuous life or the heart being eaten by Ammit and the body condemned to Duat.
Where are you getting this argument, or are you trying to impose it as a conclusion? Atheists often seems determined to make God out to be unjust (which was the implicit charge of the devil in Gn. 3) in order to justify their rejection, and i hope that is not the case here.
God being omniscient and giving more grace to others does not obligate Him to do either, and judging souls based on their capable choices does not make Him unjust. If you gave more money as a gift to some persons than others, but had those arrested who misused the funds they had, then it would not make you unjust. And if you knew that your choices would work out for the good of those who did use their funds wisely, though they were gifts in the first place, then how can you be unjust in so doing?
If God already knows that we are sinners through “Original Sin†and are subject to his whims of grace and sin, then why should we worship and love him as a father, when he holds our lives in his hands.
Why? Because (and as i explained this already you have no excuse for ignoring it) for one, you are not condemned because of "original sin:" Nowhere are innocent infants said to be damned simply because there were born with an inherited Adamic nature, though because of Adam's transgression they will experience negative effects of it (and we also realize unmerited benefits due to what ancestors did), and also become culpable and guilty of sin.
But as in giving, what is expected is that one acts "according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not," (2 Corinthians 8:12) and thus man is condemned for what he did though he had an alternative, otherwise they would have an excuse.
But as Rm. 1 teaches
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse : Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:20-21)
Choices have consequences.
Second, it remains that God being omniscient and choosing to provide varying levels of grace, and which works out for the good of those who choose the good does not make Him unjust, even though they only did so by His grace. God would be entirely just in letting every soul who sinned against the light they had, and despite the ability they were given to do otherwise, to go to Hell. We broke His laws and misused the good things He gave us, by our own choice, and God is not obligated to give grace to anyone.
But it seems atheists complain when God does not punish the wicked, as well as demand He basically compels them to believe by providing extraordinary grace so that they had to convert, for otherwise He does not confirm to their idea of an "all loving" God, and cannot allow that in His omniscience He will work all out to be both just and gracious. And the fact is there if there is positive eternity then it follows there should be a negative one.
I would rather be sent into oblivion and not know than be with a capricious God who subjects his creation to eternal damnation in heaven or hell. T
Well that sounds like you are quite the righteous martyr, like some innocent soul unjustly dammed by a malevolent God. Which in essence was the devil's psychology in Gn. 3. But you simply have no case.
Here, capricious means "determined by chance or impulse or whim rather than by necessity or reason" (Word web) which simply does not correspond to what we are dealing with, except to conform to the crafted argument.
What Scripture says is that while man does not know the depth of the wisdom of God, it is not determined by chance or impulse or whim, but that God has a purpose, and makes all things, from the devil's rebellion to a car accident, to work together for those who choose the Good, Christ. (Rm. 8:28)
The Bible has a contradiction in it that tells me that God will look after me and keep me from sin but other parts tell me that He might look after me or He might send me to hell.
It seems like you are just grabbing off the shelf objections as they do not follow what I said, or evidence anything more than a superficial understanding of Scripture.
What i want to know is where does the Bible teach that God being the Great Shepherd translates into being kept from all sin, including departing from the faith? (Heb. 3:12; 10:38,39; Gal. 5:1-4) They are kept by the power of faith. Believers who do believe on the Lord Jesus (which is evidenced by characteristic following) will not be damned. But while you cannot choose Christ apart from God's grace, but you can certainly choose to sin, despite God's grace and in resistance to Him.
Even if I am the most righteous man I may go to hell, I mean look what Job had to go through when God made a deal with Satan and worked with Satan to bring Job down. Capricious. So which is it?
Honestly, this is the type of arguments that testify to the typical cursory knowledge of and or superficial understanding of Scripture.
You think God was out to damn Job? Where or where do you see that? Sorry for my incredulity, but instead, what is easily manifest is that it while it was the premise of the jealous devil that Job only loved God due to his blessings, and would curse God if there were removed. Yet God, used this for a purpose, not only exposing the devil but working through the whole experience for the betterment and blessing of Job - you read the end of the story. Which served to teach both Him and all readers that God is in control thru tribulation and will work it out for their good, which is exactly what happened. Even though Job was wrongly accused by "friends" because his situation did not fit into their theology.
Job asked a lot of questions summed up in one, "Why is this happening to me, a righteous man?" In response to which God, doing a work in Jobs character, asked about 50 rhetorical questions, summed up in one, "Having created the universe and everything in it, do you think I am in control and know what I am doing? To which Job responded,
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. (Job 42:5-6)
And after praying for his "friends" (well, the youngest one was different) whom God rebuked and sent to Job for his intercession, "the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning..." (Job 42:12)
Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. (James 5:11)
There simply is nothing capricious here at all, as instead the story supremely teaches that God has a purpose for all that He allows and does.
P.S. There were other religions that taught the very same things you are mentioning in the Bible. You may need to open your mind that there are other possibilities on this earth that are not REVEALED but observed and recorded for posterity and benefit.
What you need to do is stop reading atheistic or skeptic sites which parrot refuted arguments, as it seems you do, and go read sites which refute them, including your copycat theory. Spend some time here .
I am a Deist and very moral, I don’t like homosexuality and abortion is an abomination. I think a man and woman should be married for as long as they can. I think you need to work to make your own way in life and provide for your family. We only need to help people up not out. I think this world is due for a wake up call and get our head out of our butt.
But without an objective supreme transcendent standard which at least basically defines what is good and evil, then it seems you are left with your moral reasoning being supreme, and could be like many other Deists, atheists etc. who support homosexuality, abortion and fornication and divorce, etc., based on what seems reasonable to them.
Actually none of these are needed for "fun," as they all have good alternatives, and these sins are all ultimately harmful.
But that is the main reason the list is provides, because all have sinned, all need salvation, and all are called to repent and turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!
Great Sunday morning post - And to see how far off the rails Western Civilization and the world has gone, read how Norway takes away CHRISTIAN children from their parents who abide by the bible: http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3368954/posts Outright rejection of reason, justice and anything Judeo-Christian accelerates. Doesn’t seem there can be much time left...
While the circumstances of the removal of the children appear extraordinary, Barnevernet has faced a long record of similar charges, particularly related to its treatment of the families of immigrants. In 2011 the children of an Indian couple, Anurup and Sagorika Bhattacharya, were removed from their care in a move that drew severe criticism from the Government of India. Also in 2011 the children of Eva Michaláková and husband, who originate from the Czech Republic, were removed, and in April 2015 a two-and-a-half month old girl called Maxine, whose mother is a deaf Norwegian an and whose father is Slovak. One reason given was "lack of eye contact between girl and her parents".
According to the NewsinEnglish.no website, Barnevernet is also criticised for placing young children outside their own language groups which mean that they quickly lose their native tongue. — http://www.christiantoday.com/article/norwegian.christian.couple.accused.of.indoctrinating.children.have.them.removed/71869.htm
No! What have I done!
Your reference verses verify the statement. Nowhere do they qualify Sin to determine who is sent to the Lake of Fire.
Those whose names are not found in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire.
Rev 20:14-15
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Our works are not judged by our standards, but by His standard.
His righteous judgment considers all works.
Those not performed through faith in Christ are simply found to be good for nothingness or not by His Standard.
The study of sin isn’t without merit, because the Law points to our sinfulness. Even the Holy Spirit reproves the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. John 16:8 (3 main roles today of the Holy Spirit)
Once we are saved, we are also sealed. We cannot remove that seal by our decisions or indecision.
It is true that sin causes death. Death is a state of existence involving separation. When we sin, we fall out of fellowship with God. His sanctifying work doesn’t continue until we return into fellowship with Him. We discern between this death and the second death referenced at the Great White Throne Judgment. (which is for unbelievers)
Probably nothing more or less than millions of us have done at some point in their lives.
Yup!
Well, at least you warned folks, to not be like you. Good work.
Question:
Why did you post this? Thank-you for your answer and God Bless.
How do you think Christ feels about people spending so much time online trying to convince others of one thing or another [even when those things are good and godly]?
I’m trying to lessen my time on the Net [and pray instead; housework, for instance, is a form of prayer], but the more I try, the more I seem to slip.
Last post for this thread. I am truly glad that you know the Bible so well and you can quote verse and parable. I am glad that you have so much knowledge about God and how He thinks. You probably know that the Bible and other revealed religions are written by MEN or women. Yes, you can tell me it was inspired by God and the writers have divinely heard and know what God thinks and how or will act. The writers must of had a direct connection to God. Atheists and Deist’s alike realize that a Perfect Supreme Being cannot be interpreted by an imperfect being and to know what “He” thinks. Atheists reject God because of this and don’t believe any of the stories from any revealed religion. We Deists appreciate what has been given to us and will enjoy what we can without affecting other sentient beings. We revel at the splendor of all creation beyond our world and the universes beyond our own. A Natural God has given us a purpose, which is to explore and gain knowledge of His creation. We Deists believe in free will with an understanding that we cannot abuse it by denying others their free will. Treat others as I would like to be treated. In closing here is a statement from Thomas Paine from Age of Reason:
I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
Why is there ANY 'hope'; if ALL religious texts are written by man?
Meaning whatever is not of faith is sin, those not performed through faith in Christ are not simply found to be good for nothingness, but Scripture shows them as damnable, from profane wonderful works" by "workers of iniquity" employing the name of Christ, to idolatry, adultery and the like, then those sent eternal torment are there because they were unredeemed sinners.
Why you must insist the contrary is true is beyond me (who is teaching this?), but Scripture makes it clear that the lost are sent there due to their sins:
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image [idolatry and blasphemy], and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:11)
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not [sins of omission]. (Matthew 25:41-43)
The idea that the lost being judged by their works does not mean they are being judged for their sins (which rejection of Christ left them liable for) is not sustainable.
When we sin, we fall out of fellowship with God. His sanctifying work doesn’t continue until we return into fellowship with Him.
Yet Scripture warns of more if one departs from the living God thru an evil heart of unbelief, including by submitting to a false gospel. (Heb. 3:12; 1-:38,39; Gal. 5:1-4)
Since the Lord Himself manifested that convicting souls of sin and their need for salvation, as well as correcting erroneous beliefs was a priority, then how do you think Christ feels about people who censor those who do so now?
I think Christ feels there’s an addictive nature of the Internet in general [it owns one, instead of the other way around], and spending time online when one could be doing other things more directly for God and His peoples, would be of more value. I know He wishes I would find something else to do more productive.
So I’d add wasting time on the Internet [sloth] to your sin list that could possibly get one to h*ll.
Wrong, as instead the Bible stands far above all other purported books of Divine revelation, and with evidence that warrants the supernatural God it attest to as being its cause and author. But from the sounds of your posts, you do not seem to be interested in seeing that.
Atheists and Deist’s alike realize that a Perfect Supreme Being cannot be interpreted by an imperfect being and to know what “He†thinks.
So then it must be true? Yet some of the same atheists postulate "space seed" theories to explain what they disallow God as being the supernatural judge and cause of.
Meanwhile the watchmaker God of Deism is a compromise attempt to do the same.
Why else would one employ an argument that the Bible cannot be from God under the premise that imperfect beings could not know what He thinks? This is hardly a worthy argument as what you have just done is reduce an Perfect Supreme Being into being utterly unable (or unwilling) to make His will and revelation known in at least basic necessary things in a manner that hardly needs or is open to interpretation, while requiring seeking for less clear thing, while overall limiting the scope in which other issue see disagreement.
We Deists appreciate what has been given to us
But which deity cares not to provide man with any transcendent express revelation of Himself and His will. A watchmaker who cares nothing about his product.
A Natural God has given us a purpose, which is to explore and gain knowledge of His creation.
And how do you know this? And if He has revealed that this is what your purpose is, perhaps writing this in the stars, then why can He not provide express revelation of His will as regards morality? I will tell you what that is excluded. It is because then man would have to deal with fornication etc. being wrong, and facing the Almighty Author of this moral code as being their judge.
e Deists believe in free will with an understanding that we cannot abuse it by denying others their free will
Which sounds idyllic, but actually this would require denying others their free will to deny others their free will. And again, without a supreme transcendent express source standard of morality then you are in the same school with those who reason that the free will of others must be denied. This is akin to a country without a constitution.
Treat others as I would like to be treated.
But which presumes and requires a foundational morality in which you understand how you should want to be treated. If were are a happy homosexual fornicator, then you would treat others with the same if that was their depravity.
I believe in one God, and no more;
But while you wrongly charge the God of the Bible with being "capricious," your god can be most anything, AA at its worst. And which is a god that cares not about revealing His will in any express way. How convenient. It's "love (fornicate with) the one you're with" all over again. And why stop at one God?
I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
But again, with a supreme source/standard of what justice requires, thus what mercy is, and just how we should and should not work to make our fellow-creatures happy, then one could be a liberal who thinks "justice" means penalizing those who engage work by taking their gain to subsidize the indolent. And restricting the free will of conservatives as being what is best for the people.
There is plenty of hope but we don’t need a book to tell us when or how to hope. Hope comes from within.
Anybody who thinks they may be sent to hell for their sins, simply fails to think through faith in what Christ provided on the Cross.
No doubt you are one of the esoteric few who understand that souls being sent into everlasting punishment due to their sinful actions, or inactions, and thus the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and liars and the like being sent to the Lake of Fire, and suffering according to their degree of guilt - all this being what Scripture says - really are not punished due to their sins.
You need to return that deluded idea back to whoever sold it to you., and which nonsense makes evangelicals look like cultists You are now off my ping list.
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