Adoration 2.0 – A Unique Insight Based on the Teaching of a Spiritual Master

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 10-28-15 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Salvation]

Worship is another name for adore.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/worship

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

"That covers about every instrument ever made...Even bag pipes"

No it doesn't. It covers trumpets (horns, the ancient Hebrews didn't have keyed trumpets), psaltery (plucked string instrument), harps, timbrels (tambourines), stringed instruments (ancient Hebrews only had plucked string instruments, so this is basically a repetition of the "psaltery and harp"), organs (a flute/syrinx/panpipe, ancient Hebrews didn't have keyboard organs or anything of the like), and cymbals.

A good Protestant would leave the interpretation of Scripture to those numpties in Rome and stick with harps, shofars, panpipes, cymbals and tambourines, just to be safe. You can leave your pianos, harmoniums, pipe organs, and bowed instruments at home. Ditto on the keyed-instruments.

[dsc]

“So why did you accuse me then of something I did not do?”

Oh, is *that* the problem?

I was talking to you, but not about you.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“How do we know what books are in the Bible? The Bible doesn’t tell us.”

The issue isn’t, what books are in the Bible. The issue is, which writings are inspired. Indeed, Peter tells us Paul’s writings are Scripture. God has acted to inspire, to preserve and to authenticate. Now that we have them, it appears your denomination doesn’t want to recognize the authority of His inspired words and prefers arguments from silence as the foundation of truth.

“Additionally, we see in Matthew 13:54, and other places, Jesus teaches, but we don’t know exactly what he teaches, as the content isn’t recorded. “

We don’t know lots of things - like all God did before creation. We do know exactly what He chose to inspire. He tells us it is sufficient for salvation and maturity as a believer

“Many late first century teachings came directly from the Apostles”

You claim so. We have no proof, nor are those words inspired by God.

transmitted to and by people such as St. Polycarp. Polycarp was a student of St. John the Apostle, yet many complain some of his teachings are “unbiblical.”

“And finally, consider the word “trinity” exists nowhere in the Bible.

The revelation of the triune nature of a God exists in Scripture and forms the doctrine. The word “trinity” is a short way to refer to our understanding of all that is taught in Scripture of God’s triune nature.

The word “bible” doesn’t appear in the Bible. It is a word we use to summarize the collection of inspired books.

“While the concept exists, think how many centuries it took for the whole of Christendom to finally accept the triune nature of God.”

Taking time to examine what exists in Scripture is a different issue than adding to Scripture.

“Regarding Eucharistic Adoration, the teaching of the Real Presence, from John 6, including all 4 accounts of the Last Supper, are rejected by most Protestants. While the words are clearly and precisely in the text, non-Catholics don’t agree with the interpretation.”

“As one can see, the argument of “that’s not in the Bible,” is weak. While something as essential as the Trinity isn’t spelled out, it is considered Biblical, yet something that is spelled out, “This is my Body,...” isn’t considered Biblical by a large number. Quite a paradox, is it not?”

Once you look at the totality of Scripture’s teaching, it is ironic a whole industry was created that is false.

[Iscool]

No it doesn't. It covers trumpets (horns, the ancient Hebrews didn't have keyed trumpets)

How do you know??? Of course that's crazy...So why doesn't your religion have keyless trumpets blasting away in your churches???

, psaltery (plucked string instrument)

Well, you're 100% wrong on that one...

nebel nêbel
neh'-bel, nay'-bel
From H5034; a skin bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence, a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): - bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol.

That includes bagpipes and some of these

Got a lot of jug players in your churches???

harps, timbrels (tambourines), stringed instruments (ancient Hebrews only had plucked string instruments

That's stupid...A plucked instrument??? HaHa...It's a 'twanging' instrument, whether it's plucked or strummed... By your definition, here's a picture of a legitimate Christian band...

, so this is basically a repetition of the "psaltery and harp")

No it isn't...You were wrong on the psaltry...

, organs (a flute/syrinx/panpipe, ancient Hebrews didn't have keyboard organs or anything of the like), and cymbals.

A good Protestant would leave the interpretation of Scripture to those numpties in Rome and stick with harps, shofars, panpipes, cymbals and tambourines, just to be safe. You can leave your pianos, harmoniums, pipe organs, and bowed instruments at home. Ditto on the keyed-instruments.

Could be...But a good Christian will believe the bible knowing that the bible keeps up with technology...

Here's some wisdom that you and yours will benefit from...God doesn't care if you bang two spoons or sticks together...If it is to glorily God, he is pleased...

[Iscool]

Worship is another name for adore.

You didn't say worship...You said look into a bible and get educated on 'adore'...IT ISN'T THERE!!!

Worship is only meant for a deity...

[SpirituTuo]

Don’t limit yourself with English. Remember, the Scriptures were written originally in different languages, and translated several times, and now into English.

English may not have words to clearly capture the meaning of Koine Greek, or Hebrew, or Aramaic. Translation isn’t transliteration, again, as meaning is often missed.

[tioga]

Which is exactly why we should respect each other’s Christian religion. We are all part of the body of Christ, we are all precious to Him. To “claim” the only version of truth is silly. Why not find our common tenets and focus on them, instead of always bickering? I respect that other faiths do not believe in the True Presence as I do. I don’t believe that makes them spawn of the devil. Neither, does it make me so. /rant

Not intended for you personally, just inspired by your post.

[SpirituTuo]

Of course the Catholic Church cares about the inspired work, that’s why they assembled the Bible!! Good grief.

We agree that we don’t need to know, and should be able to understand His teaching. However, God is unknowable by His perfection, and thus man’s understanding of God will vary.

We do know Polycarp was a disciple of John, and trust and believe John faithfully transmitted his knowledge to Polycarp. Other reported Polycarp’s fastidious nature in doing exactly what the Apostles did and taught.

The short answer to all of this is simple. One group of Christians believe in Eucharistic Adoration, and other groups do not. Both believe Scripture supports their position. As it is a matter of religious principle, don’t expect either side to be swayed.

Personally, I don’t see the point in someone going on a religious thread predominated by an different belief and saying they are wrong. I just don’t get it.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“The short answer to all of this is simple. One group of Christians believe in Eucharistic Adoration, and other groups do not. Both believe Scripture supports their position. As it is a matter of religious principle, don’t expect either side to be swayed.

There is no verse that teaches, models, commands nor demonstrates Eucharistic adoration. It is foreign to Scripture and was introduced as error crept into the church. Since only God opens eyes and hearts, I do not expect to persuade nor argue anyone into believing the Scriptures.

“Personally, I don’t see the point in someone going on a religious thread predominated by an different belief and saying they are wrong. I just don’t get it.

Perhaps this is an indication that caucus threads might be a better choice for you than open discussion threads?

Either way, I wish you blessing.

[SpirituTuo]

Blessings to you as well.

Worshiping the Savior, falling to one’s knees in His presence is demonstrated in the Gospels, as well as Revelations.

Believing Jesus’s body, blood, soul, and divinity are truly present in the Eucharist, as specifically called out in John 6, and all the Last Supper narratives, is held by Catholics, and some others.

To fall to one’s knees at the sight of Jesus is indeed biblical, as well as respectful.

Should one not choose to believe what Jesus said plainly and repeatedly in John 6 is their business.

I don’t feel the need to go on threads and tell people how to worship or what to believe. Should someone seek knowledge and understanding, based on a different view point, I am happy to discuss. However, there are some whose only purpose is to stir up trouble, and disrupt a topic on worshiping God.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“To fall to one’s knees at the sight of Jesus is indeed biblical, as well as respectful.”

Yes, but not before the host.

Why are no Apostles doing it? Why not Mary? Why not a single believer in any church, in any epistle, in any region, in any inspired writing anywhere before 100 ad?

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

"How do you know??? Of course that's crazy...So why doesn't your religion have keyless trumpets blasting away in your churches???"

How do I know? Because a cursory investigation into the progression of musical instruments reveals that chromatic trumpets didn't exist anywhere at the time that the Psalms were recorded.

"Well, you're 100% wrong on that one..."

I could argue over this, but instead I will just suggest that you go to google images (or your search engine of choice) and search "psaltery," and see what comes up.

"That's stupid...A plucked instrument??? HaHa...It's a 'twanging' instrument, whether it's plucked or strummed... "

Plucked, as opposed to bowed. Twang the thing if you wish, by all means, but I think you'll find "plucked string instrument" is the more generally accepted term over "twanging instrument."

"No it isn't...You were wrong on the psaltry..."

Again, refer to google images.

"Here's some wisdom that you and yours will benefit from...God doesn't care if you bang two spoons or sticks together...If it is to glorily God, he is pleased..."

So we're cool on the Eucharistic Adoration? Awesome.

[SpirituTuo]

Well, when Jesus was with them, He was with them in His physical human body.

Please note, the belief in the Real Presence was recorded as early as 120 AD. It is worth noting, as the piece later explains, how belief in the Real Presence was taken for granted, and wasn’t until about 1000 that it was actually suggested it was anything but.

It stands to reason if one believes they are in the presence of Jesus Christ, one would pay appropriate homage. Choose the word, but adoration (adoramus), as paid by shepherds and 3 Wise men fits.

The History of Eucharistic Adoration
Development of Doctrine in the Catholic Church

by John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HISTOREA.TXT

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Please note, the belief in the Real Presence was recorded as early as 120 AD. It is worth noting, as the piece later explains, how belief in the Real Presence was taken for granted, and wasn’t until about 1000 that it was actually suggested it was anything but.”

A simple assertion with no citation.

The larger point is more important - that it was taught by no Apostle who was present at the Last Supper, was never practiced in Scripture, never commanded, never sanctioned, never recorded - even a single time.

As such, there is no evidence it was part of the Apostles teaching before 100 ad.

Best.

[Iscool]

I could argue over this, but instead I will just suggest that you go to google images (or your search engine of choice) and search "psaltery," and see what comes up.

Google images do not really provide the answer...I concede I did not go far enough...

Strong's #5035: nebel (pronounced neh'-bel)

or nebel {nay'-bel}; from 5034; a skin-bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence, a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form):--bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol.

The secondary meaning is a musical instrument...But what is interesting is whether it be a psaltery or a viol, it is the description of the shape somewhat of a bottle...It's a vessle, capable of holding a liquid...So that would coincide with the main definition of psaltery...

1 Samuel 1:24: "and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and brought him unto the house of the LORD"
1 Samuel 10:3: "loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine:"
1 Samuel 25:18: "two hundred loaves, and two bottles of wine, and five sheep ready dressed,"

But while it is also spoken of as a musical instrument, there is no mention of strings attached...Perhaps they used the bottle shaped psalteries as drums...And since those scriptures mention stringed instruments as well, I would lean in that direction...

There is nothing anywhere to indicate we are limited to the use of instruments that were available thousands of years ago...

[Salvation]

**Why are no Apostles doing it?**

[rwa265]

Please note, the belief in the Real Presence was recorded as early as 120 AD. It is worth noting, as the piece later explains, how belief in the Real Presence was taken for granted, and wasn’t until about 1000 that it was actually suggested it was anything but.

---

Here’s a link to the Real Presence Eucharistic Education and Adoration Association. It provides documentation showing what early Christians believed.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

The person who researched these documents wrote: “The Early Christians actually took the Real Presence for granted. It doesn’t even seem as if there was much debate. I could not find anyone who denied the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament before the year 500 A.D.”

So the question is, where did they get the idea that Jesus was physically present in the bread and wine? Was it taught by the Apostles? Did the first Christians after the Apostles make it up? If so, why would they?

The first place to look is the Bible. We have gone over many times what was said in John 6 and the Last Supper narratives, so let’s look at what happened after the Resurrection.

On the very evening of His Resurrection, Jesus made Himself known to two disciples in Emmaus. When they were at table, He took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave to them. With that, their eyes were opened and they recognized Him. They at once set out to Jerusalem where they found gathered the eleven and those with them, and recounted what had happened to them in the breaking of the bread. Luke 24:13-35

After three thousand were added when Peter spoke at Pentecost, they devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers. Acts 2:42

Luke tells us that it was on the first day of the week when they gathered to break bread that Eutychus fell out of a third story window. After Paul went down, threw himself upon Eutychus, and said as he embraced him, “Don’t be alarmed; there is life in him.,” he returned upstairs, broke the bread, and ate. Acts 20:7-12

When two hundred seventy-six were on a ship in a storm, Paul took bread, gave thanks to God in front of them all, broke it, and began to eat. When day came, they all reached shore safely. Acts 27:35-44

And, finally, Paul tells the Corinthians: “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 11:27

What was the message Jesus was given us by making Himself known in the breaking of bread? What were the apostles teaching them when they were devoted to the breaking of the bread? When Paul broke bread, was it solely for physical nourishment? Given his admonishment of the Corinthians, it appears that it was more than that to him.

We can believe what we want, but based on Holy Scripture, it cannot be said with absolute certitude that the physical presence was not taught by the Apostles or that it was never practiced in Scripture. Scripture is silent on what was taught or what was practiced. The writings of the first Christians, though, provide strong evidence that the physical presence is what was taught by the Apostles and was practiced in Scripture.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“We can believe what we want, but based on Holy Scripture, it cannot be said with absolute certitude that the physical presence was not taught by the Apostles or that it was never practiced in Scripture. Scripture is silent on what was taught or what was practiced.”

Agreed. If Scripture says nothing, commands nothing, gives no example of a single Apostle or leader doing the thing, it is made up later.

“The person who researched these documents wrote: “The Early Christians actually took the Real Presence for granted. It doesn’t even seem as if there was much debate. I could not find anyone who denied the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament before the year 500 A.D.”

People never oppose that which wasn’t there.

[rwa265]

People never oppose that which wasn’t there.

---

I’m not sure what you are saying wasn’t there, but the belief that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ was there. The researcher provided many documents from as early as 80 AD to the late 400’s demonstrating this belief. Conversely, he could find no record of anyone who disagreed with this belief. But as I said, we can believe what we want.

Peace,
Rich