Has Jesus always existed.....is He eternal per Mormonism? Or was He created?
Good Q.
Note: For documentation as to showing "proof" for these answers below, see the next (last) chart.
| Questions Distinguishing 'Mormon' Jesus from Jesus of Bible | Mormon 'Jesus'? | Based upon what Lds 'scripture' | Jesus of Bible? | Relevant Scriptures |
| 1. Was Jesus self-existent from all eternity past? | Lds say NO -- unless Lds want to claim that men also are 'self-existent' from eternity past: "Man was also in the beginning with God." (D&C 93:29); yet they de-emphasize their own "scripture" -- Alma 13:9 in the Book of Mormon, where it reads how Jesus was "the only begotten without beginning of days" | D&C 93:29 vs. Alma 13:9. Note: In Joseph Smith's "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith," he also elaborated upon a "council of gods" who were before Heavenly Father; and how Heavenly Father himself had a "father" and grandfather. | YES | John 8:58; John 1:1,18; Micah 5:2; Ex. 3:14 |
| 2. Is the title 'firstborn' as applied to Christ NOT linked to being the "elder brother" of you and me as pre-earth spirits, as Mormons interpret it, but rather to the Son of God being the pre-eminent heir and creator of all things? |
NO |
D&C 93:21 -- introduced 1833...not found in Book of Mormon | NO | Col. 1:15-18; Eph. 6:12; Ps. 80:27 |
| 3. Can the 'Creator' be One who was 'created' (as a 'creature')? | YES | "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269). | NO | Col. 1:16 |
| 4. Was Jesus as Son of God perfect from eternity past? | NO | "Even Christ himself was NOT perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness." (Lds 6th "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68); * "...we have a correct idea of the character of the Son from the writings of the apostles, so far as they learned it. But while he was tabernacling in the flesh, he was more or less contaminated with fallen nature." (Brigham Young, JoD vol. 6, p. 95) | YES | 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:22 |
| 5. Was Jesus always 'divine' from eternity past? | NO | * "Jesus BECAME a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." (p. 51 Milton Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages); * "Christ ATTAINED Godhood while yet in pre-existence..." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323) | YES | John 17:5; Heb. 1:8 |
Note: For documentation as to showing "proof" for these answers below, see the next (last) chart.
| Questions Distinguishing 'Mormon' jesus from Jesus of Bible | Mormon 'Jesus' | Jesus of Bible |
| 1. Was Jesus self-existent from all eternity past? | NO: Lds say ALL "intelligences" -- including Jesus -- existed (D&C 93:29) before becoming a "spirit" child born to a divine goddess on a planet near Kolob; yet Joseph Smith could not even keep his story straight here, giving a "revelation" in 1831 that "from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ" (D&C 39:1) + Alma 13:9 talks about the "only begotten without beginning of days" I openly dare LDS to forthrightly exegete Doctrine & Covenants 39:1, which says: Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ.... What does "from all eternity to all eternity" mean? "The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic...Intelligence is eternal & exists upon a self-existent principle...The first principles of man are self-existent with God." Smith, p. 210 [TofPresidents of the Church] | YES: Bible: Before Abraham was, "I AM" (John 8:58) ["I AM" is a divine Name first introduced in Exodus 3:14 and means, "The Self-Existing One"...THE Jesus is self-existent and didn't need a "mom god" on a planet near Kolob to "progress" in His life. Mormons flat-out deny the teaching found in John 1:1, 18 and Micah 5:2, because they claim Jesus was part of a past creation process – (obviously if Jesus’ Mormon “father” was once a man, then Jesus was at some point “less” in stature at that “time”) * "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...the Word became flesh and dwelt among us [Jesus]" (Jn. 1:1,18). * ”But thou, Bethlehem Ephrata, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2) |
| 2. Is the title 'firstborn' as applied to Christ linked to being the "elder brother" of you and me as pre-earth spirits, or to Christ as pre-eminent heir and creator of all things? | The Firstborn "spirit" of many born spirits on a planet near Kolob; the 'Mormon Jesus' at his "spirit birth" was only "more special" at his "spirit birth" than you or me only because He was the "firstborn" | In Hebrew culture, the firstborn = "heir"...Jesus was not the "first" to be born...though Paul also adds in Col. 1:18 Jesus was the "firstborn of the dead" -- the first to rise from the dead. Colossians 1:15-16 explains this Jesus as "heir" -- "firstborn" -- as this Greek word meant pre-eminent -- or has first right over all creation...Psalm 80:27 demonstrates this idea of priority of position as Col. 1:16 says Jesus is creator of all, all things were created for Jesus (cf. Hebrews 3:4) |
| 3. Can the 'Creator' be One who was 'created' (as a 'creature')? | YES "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269 implying that "Christendom" postulates a "mythical Christ" because we say Jesus is "uncreated" -- and part of a "triple unity" with the Father and Holy Spirit). | NO: 16 For by him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL things were created by him, and for him: (Col. 1:16) |
| 4. Was Jesus as Son of God perfect from eternity past? | NO: "Even Christ himself was NOT perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness." (Lds 6th "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68; cf. Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, p. 153) * "...we have a correct idea of the character of the Son from the writings of the apostles, so far as they learned it. But while he was tabernacling in the flesh, he was more or less contaminated with fallen nature." (Brigham Young, JoD vol. 6, p. 95) | YES: "He made Him WHO KNEW NO SIN to be sin" (2 Cor. 5:21); Christ "did no sin" (1 Pet. 2:22) |
| 5. Was Jesus always divine from eternity past? | NO: * "Jesus BECAME a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." (p. 51 Milton Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages); * "Christ ATTAINED Godhood while yet in pre-existence..." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323) | YES: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, John 17:5); ...unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever (Heb. 1:8) |
Btw, THE key Mormon unique "scripture" passage that directly answers your question (I cite it in the first row of the first chart from my last post to you) is Lds Doctrine & Covenants 93:29:
This is based upon Lds "scripture" Doctrine and Covenants 93:29,33...which says that spirits and intelligences are as eternal as God is: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal... (LDS "scripture" Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33)
So this then becomes a "unique" of attacking Christ's uniqueness from eternity.
Instead of a direct assault upon Christ's eternity past, what Lds leaders have done is simply elevate everybody else to having that SAME eternal past!
Per the Mormon narrative, you started off as "goo" somewhere...a "spirit" (D&C 93:29,33)...You are just as "eternal" (as in eternal past) as God & Jesus...you haven't "lived" any less than them (past-wise)
Then you were spirit-born to a man who became God & one of his goddess wives...near "Kolob"...wherever that is...
Oh, and Lucifer -- Satan -- was your "elder spirit bro"
Then you were sent here to inhabit a body...
And if the above wasn't enough, if you look under the "Spirit" entry in LDS church-published Bible Dictionary, 1979 (p. 776) -- in back of Holy Bible, you'll find this entry:
"That is, ALL forms of living things--man, beast and vegetation--existed as individual spirits, before any form of life existed upon the earth. The spirit is in the likeness of the physical body, as demonstrated in Gen. 2:5; 1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15-16; D&C 77:2; 129; Moses 3:4-7. Furthermore, all spirit is matter,but is more refined and pure than mortal element (D&C 131:7)."
So. If you take the infinite regression teaching of the Mormon church -- infinitely regressing, we ALL have supposedly "existed" in some form -- [again, see @ Doctrine & Covenant 93:29,33 above...this teaches WE are as eternal (past) as God/Jesus, etc. -- & that spirits & intelligences & elements ALWAYS existed!!!
...and couple it with this above eternal regression teaching...that vegetation & beasts were co-existent alongside us as fellow "spirits" once upon a time...and that we all have ALWAYS existed...
Sometimes esoteric macabre teachings that you think are so FAR out there...are actually mainstream Mormonism!