Revelation 7: 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, ONE HUNDRED FOURTY FOUR THOUSAND sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel
5 from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.
The Bible SPECIFICALLY mentions bloodlines.
So stow the hogwash about being grafted in. That applies to salvation, has nothing to do with prophecy of end time players.
John in the first 2 chapters SPECIFICALLY mentions the church and uses the word church.
Sooo...IF John was continuing talking about "the church" in Revelation he would say church. But NOWHERE after chapter 3 are the churches addressed or mentioned.
After that everything references Israel.
Revelation 12 describes the woman who gives birth to Christ, then later is chased into the wilderness.
The Church didn't give birth to Christ, Christ came through Israel.
Gentiles might be grafted in, but the promise is still through Israel and ALL of latter Revelation mentions or references Israel
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>> “So stow the hogwash about being grafted in. That applies to salvation, has nothing to do with prophecy of end time players.” <<
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You are totally wrong on that.
Without grafting in we are dead.
Israel is all that will be saved, so if we are not grafted in or genetically Israel, we have no hope.
>> “John in the first 2 chapters SPECIFICALLY mentions the church and uses the word church.” <<
That is simply confusion on your part. there is no church, only an assembly. (do you understand the difference?)
What you call “the church” is Israel, Yeshua’s assembly, and we are there until the First Resurrection, at the Last Trump, which is the event that ends the tribulation of the saints.
>> “Revelation 12 describes the woman who gives birth to Christ” <<
Wrong again!
It describes Israel, from which Yeshua came. The term “The Woman” refers to Israel in every instance. What chapter 12 is speaking of is a display in the sky, of the constellation Bethula (Virgo) at sunset at Tishri 1, the day of trumpets.
>> “The Church didn’t give birth to Christ, Christ came through Israel.” <<
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There is no church!
That is dispensational idiocy that is nowhere to be found in the word, except for the mis-translation of Ekklesia, which is the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
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I'm the one with 'predisposed' theories? I'm not the one with chunked-and-formed mass-produced theology...
The Bible SPECIFICALLY mentions bloodlines.
Right. and Judah... The House of Judah... you know them as Jews... They make up just the tribe of Judah, and the tribe of Benjamin. The REST of the tribes are the House of Israel and are ***NOT*** Jews. My point is that the Jews are but 24000 of the 144000... Explicitly so, because of bloodline. So '144000 Jewish Evangelicals' is incorrect.
So stow the hogwash about being grafted in. That applies to salvation, has nothing to do with prophecy of end time players.
Oh it has everything to do with the end time players... Might try to find the two witnesses in the OT... You might just change your mind.
John in the first 2 chapters SPECIFICALLY mentions the church and uses the word church. Sooo...IF John was continuing talking about "the church" in Revelation he would say church. But NOWHERE after chapter 3 are the churches addressed or mentioned.
First of all, your idea of 'church' is misguided. The ekklesia was baptized in the Red Sea and took bread and wine from within the loins of Abraham. There is no difference.
Secondly, as to your position on the text, he is speaking to specific churches, which ends with an abrupt scene change. The passage is it's own parenthetical. To exclude the church from following scenes is presumptuous.
After that everything references Israel.
Right. ALL Israel.
Revelation 12 describes the woman who gives birth to Christ, then later is chased into the wilderness. The Church didn't give birth to Christ, Christ came through Israel.
TRUE. And her offspring are those who have the testimony of Yeshua AND keep the commandments.
Gentiles might be grafted in, but the promise is still through Israel and ALL of latter Revelation mentions or references Israel
You don't see what you are saying. Gentiles are 'without covenant'. Either you are Israel, or you are not. If you are grafted in, that means you ARE Israel, and it has always been so. A mixed multitude came up out of Egypt, not just Abraham's sons. They all became Israel. One Torah for the resident and the stranger.
Are you aware that Revelation (as well as Jesus himself) uses symbolism? A literal interpretation is often not appropriate. Jesus was neither a door nor a vine nor, for that matter, a shepherd, yet he described himself as such to make a point. That is also true in John’s Revelation.