Posted on 08/17/2015 6:07:35 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
It is that time of week again, where we talk about the Mary, the Mother of God. This is definitely the single most important title that Mary has. If someone gets this wrong, then they get the Divinity of our Lord wrong, and that means the whole plan of Salvation is just messed up. So let us look at this most important title.
Theotokos, God-bearer in Greek, is what the council of Ephesus declared in 431. It specifically says this “If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema.” Now just that statement alone proves the early Church believed that there was Authority given to the bishops to decide sound doctrine, Mary was a Holy Virgin her entire life, and that She bore God. However, we only have time for one today.
Now many times we will hear non-Catholics tell us that this title is nowhere found in Scripture, explicitly at least. However, they cannot themselves find a Scripture verse that says that all doctrine and dogma must be explicitly proven in Scripture. I bet they can never find that. This is a trap they set up for themselves and it is a very unfair double standard that they expect us to meet, but they do not have to. However, on top of this double standard is if we used that same standard, then the doctrine of the Trinity is thrown out, since it’s not an explicit teaching, but instead is implicit in Scripture. This double standard seems to cause more problems that it’s worth wouldn’t you say?
Here is the cold hard truth of it though, all Christians rely on some Church Tradition, as well as Scripture, to validate their doctrines, whether they admit it or not. With that being said, Scripture and Tradition can never contradict one another. The Traditions of men can contradict the Word of God, but the Traditions God left us, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit, are binding upon us, as we are to hold fast to Traditions. So then, what is the real question? The real question is, Does Scripture contradict the teaching that Mary is the Mother of God, and is that doctrine found in Scripture at least implicitly?
Let us begin with Luke 1:43, where Mary visited Elizabeth. There Elizabeth exclaimed “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because Mary was the Mother of the Lord, who is the Second part of the Holy Trinity, Mary is truly and rightfully called the Mother of God.
We also see in Isaiah 7:14 “Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which is interpreted God with us.” Jesus is God. He was God when He was in the womb, conceived, lived, died, buried, resurrected, in the Eucharist, and in Heaven. The Messiah, who is God, was to be born of a virgin, according to Scripture. God was born of a virgin, and it’s right there in Isaiah, who prophesied of Christ birth. That means both Old and New Testament support the Catholic Doctrine of the Mother of God.
However, this may not be enough for some non-Catholics. Some say that Elisabeth called Christ Lord, and not God, saying that Mary was only to give birth to the human child, the Lord Jesus Christ. So then the question becomes, does lord here mean divinity or just authority? Let’s look at the context.
First let us look at 1 Cor. 8:5, which states “Indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” St. Paul makes it clear that Jesus is the one True, Lord, as opposed to all the false ones, that the pagans who converted in Corinth were probably worshiping. So then, they would understand that Jesus is God. This holds true to the Jews who converted too, who would know Deut. 6:4 “Hear, therefore, o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.”
So then that brings us back to Luke 1:43. Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. The Mother…Mothers give birth to persons, not natures, let us remember that. Mary did not just give birth to the human nature of Christ, she gave birth to the person of Christ. Christ personhood is Divine, it is God the Son.
Then let us look at 2 Sam. 6:9 where the King, who was David says “How can the ark of the Lord come to me (being the ark of the covenant)” Then in 2 Samuel 616 we see King David leaping in the presence of the Ark, just as John the Baptist did. Then we yet again see another parallel, which says that the ark of the Lord abode in the house of Obededom the Gethite for three months (2 Sam. 6:11), and according to Luke 1:56 Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth about three months. Then, we see that the ark of the covenant carried three items, manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s rod. These are all types of things Christ are, the Bread of Life, Word made Flesh, and our true High Priest.
Even knowing all this though, there are still those who would deny that Mary is the Mother of God. So then we have to ask, who is Jesus Christ to them? If Mary is not the Mother of God, then who did she give birth to? Many would say it was an earthly human lord, not God. So then, what does that make Christ? If Mary did not give birth to God, then who did she give birth to? Was not Christ God when He was conceived?
If someone says Mary only gave birth to the person of Christ one of two errors, or both could happen, and that is the Denial of the divinity of Christ, and that one would have to say Christ is two distinct persons, and that he is not One. Both were considered heresy in the Early Church. Christ is one Person, with two natures, Divine and Human, which go together and are not separate of one another. If one denies that, the ultimately they are speaking about a different Christ, and St. Paul warns us about that problem, and to not to give heed to them (2 Cor. 11:4).
So then, some say that Mary is the mother of the Trinity if we take it that far, however, this is not true. Mary gave birth to the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2nd Person, who is still God just not the Trinity. However, we must never forget that each Person in the Trinity shares the same Divine Nature and is fully God.
One thing some still point out is that Christ is eternal, so for Mary to be the Mother of God she would have to be God. However the Church does not say Mary is the source of the Divine Nature of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. To better understand this let’s look at humanity. Parents give birth to a person, however they are not the author of life, and certainly did not give the child it’s soul. Thus is true with Mary, she did not give Christ His Divine Nature, though she was the Mother of more than just the human form of Christ, because she gave birth to a person, who was God.
I’ve never been to Jerusalem and I only obey righteous civil laws.
I will, of course, obey God’s Ten Commandments in whatever country I’m in.
There are more than just ten laws to which those believing they can keep the law to obtain eternal life must adhere. BUT God has offered another way: The Grace of God in Christ can birth the broken and contrite spirit to new life with His Holy Spirit in the in the NOW, not after all that they can do or after striving to be faithful to the sacraments, etc. Workign for that which God has Given by His Grace alone is an insult to that Grace.
You mean absolutely DEAD. I.e., not in Heaven or in Hell. Not existing? Annihilated?
In other words, those who are deceased are non-existent?
No Catholic claims that the title “Mother of God” is present in Scripture.
What Catholics say is that the truth that Mary is the Mother of God is taught in Scripture.
Scripture teaches that Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
Scripture teaches that Jesus is the Word (God) made Flesh.
Scripture teaches, therefore, that Mary is the Mother of God.
Scripture also tells us that Elizabeth, inspired by the Holy Spirit, called Mary “the mother of my Lord.” I.e., Elizabeth, inspired by the Holy Spirit, called Mary the mother of God.
How can Protestants read those crystal-clear assertions in the gospels that Mary is the mother of God, and yet obstinately deny that Scripture teaches that Mary is the mother of God?
Yes, He did.
God created me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven.
Lucifer did not serve God and there there are no mosquitoes in Heaven.
Luther was a tool of Satan and urged his followers to sin, and sin boldly.
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same...There was no "victim." Jesus willingly gave up his spirit to the Father. It was a supreme act of Love that He did, he GAVE His life for us.
He was not a victim.
It appears you believe in the “many, different paths to Heaven” heresy.
God is, from our own perspective, a Trinity. The Trinity, as it were.
God the Father,
and the Holy Spirit. To know one of them, is to in effect, know them all.
Yet;
Now tell me, and tell me true. No extra "fluff" information. Just one simple answer unadorned with any other considerations.
Which one of the above three Persons is Mary the mother of?
Or, did she...bear, and give birth ---->to triplets?
Did she bear the entire Trinity, and so is Truly Mother Of God?
I didn't think so...
[test is over and done, class dismissed, you may go].
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The term God Bearer, as problematic as even that can be, produces less theological trouble than hailing Mary as Mother of God has -- for that term Theotokos more closely adheres to the limiting of Mary to being only mother of the Messiah, mother of the Christ, who is known to us as the only begotten son of God, and thus, according to tradition of the Hebrews (a son being equal in essence, to his own father) is God. God among us, Emmanuel.
Meanwhile, to continue to ask "how can" when yet more reasons for the terminology, in English identifying Mary as capital "M" Mother of God can be problematic, and is often turned to in support of the apparent inflation of Mary's own role in the larger overall theological schema, appears to me to be obstinate refusal (if we are to be using that term also) on the part of Marionists (for lack of a better term) to grapple with the the fact that Marionism is indeed theological addition to the Gospel.
This aspect, of there having been additions to the Gospel is quite significant, and all in all is what the discussion has been about, with one side for the most part, obstinately deny there have been any additions, or of there has been, then those are otherwise justified by some other criteria, far enough removed from Scripture itself to negate be able to honestly refer to what the Scriptures have to say about it all, as "crystal clear in the gospels that Mary is the mother of God" unless Mary is the mother of God the Father and the Holy Spirit also.
And yet here we are, at comment/reply #889, shall it be?
God existed before Mary did, so how can she be his mother?
To give birth to a god, one might reasonably expect the mother to be a god. Is Mary a god?
**Scripture teaches that Jesus is the Word (God) made Flesh.**
Your like-minded sidekick wouldn’t answer this, how about you:
Are the biceps, triceps, hamstrings, etc. of the Son, God?
If so, then those parts of God didn’t previously exist before the physical manifestation. So, by your style of logic, part of God (his Word) is not eternal. That won’t float because the Word was with God in the beginning. WAAAAAY before Mary came along.
It’s pretty simple. Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God,...not,...God the image. Just like the scriptures say almost 50 times; Jesus Christ is the Son of God,...not,...God the Son.
The true and very real substance of God, is invisible, and was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. Jesus Christ, John, and Paul, affirm that fact.
Cheerio!
(it’s bedtime already)
Also, if you think that the Word is separate and distinct from God the Father, then you REALLY need to read John 12:44-50,...at least 10 times,...very slowly.
goodnight all!
Jesus is 100%man and 100% God...inseparable....she was indeed, the mother of God.
no...God's mom...O.K. now??
None at all...Catholics pray Through Mary....ask her to intervene for us.......Holy Mary, Mother of God...PRAY FOR US SINNERS now, and at the hour of our death....amen.
Good to see you TC. I’ll post the prayers TO Mary later. You know they’re out there. Time for bed.
WOW, I'm so glad that the protestant revolution came along after only one thousand six hundred years to set us straight.....whew, that was close....
In-credible! Your response has only made the seemingly willful blindness or arrogance of certain RCs even more manifest for all to see, as an argument against submitting to Rome and attempting reasonable exchange with such.
Bye.
Sometimes. In that one prayer.
There are scores of other prayers out there that can be found with a simple google search that prove otherwise, that Catholics do indeed prayer TO Mary asking her to do things for them.
She has usurped God's place in the prayer lives of way too many Catholics.
What a pathetic accusation ... revealing too much of the spirit that is in the speculator with such a specious accusation. Very catholic, to make a specious accusation, knowing it is false and seeking some emotional leverage ...
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