[Mrs. Don-o]

Thanks, aMPU, I appreciate that. It was an intelligent and considerate response.

As for items where you misrepresent what the Catholic Church teaches, and thus what I believe as a Catholic, we'll start with a few from just one recent post, #180, where you undertook to explain to RnMomof7 what I believe as a Catholic, and why.

• "...paganism crept into the Roman church and turned the glorious Gospel of Grace into a system of religious works"

  There are a lot of elements of pre-Christian culture in Catholicism, such as: Wedding rings. Syllogisms. Brides in white. Burying our dead in caskets. Flowers on graves. Philosophy. Prayer breakfasts. Banners and flags. Formal logic. (And hundreds more, but let's keep this reasonably short.) These are customs purified of their idolatrous content and remade in forms compatible with Christianity. They constitute neither syncretism nor idolatry. They do not "turn the glorious Gospel of Grace into a system of religious works"

• "... there was no more intimate relationship."

  False.

• "It was a celestial hamster wheel of sacraments, stations, genuflection, rote words, mumbled songs, etc."

  Jumble of falsehoods.

  Now, I'll personally admit hamsterish ways (I happen to be eating sunflower seeds just now) --- But to say "hamster wheel" is to say devotional acts are done unmindfully, which they are not. To insinuate that sacraments and stations indicate pagan belief and replace an intimate relationship with God, is likewise false.

• "...there arose the pagan infusion of multiple demigods"

  False.

• "... including the Demigoddess Mary."

  False. She is a handmaid and a creature, not a demigoddess.

• "[In Catholicism] you may not be “good enough to have a relationship with God that allows you to know and approach Him securely in that relationship,"

  False.

• "... but fortunately (!), you can approach the Demigoddess Mary."

  False, she is not a demigoddess.

• "To be a demigoddess, you must have no sin, you must not be defiled by common urges or desires (sex, orgasm, etc.)"

  False. Being human, Mary has the same kind of human nature as our first ancestors Adam and Eve. She has every urge or desire common to humanity.

• "... You must be above humanity, but lower than God."

  False. It's true that she's lower than God, but false that she is above humanity.

• "... You must have superpowers to hear everyone simultaneously"

  That's actually true, but so will you, when you are a saint in heaven (a destiny I desire for you.) We won't be omnipotent (we'll always be infinitely short of that) but still, we'll have gifts such that "eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the mind of man to imagine"

  Hearing everyone simultaneously is probably one of the least of them, since it's almost possible NOW via AI technology. What God can do for us has to be far more, unimaginably more, than what we can do now, with e.g. Japanese robotics coupled with cloud technology.

• "You must be able to perform miracles yourself."

  False.

• "There are shrines to you."

  That's true, but that doesn't constitute idolatry. There are shrines to Washington and Lincoln in DC --- if they haven't yet been dynamited in the current fever-phase of secular anti-American iconoclasm. It doesn't indicate adoration, but veneration. If you don't grasp the difference, you might end up with the mob leveling sites of civic veneration, such as the Jefferson Memorial, or the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

• "... You will rule over the sun and moon and stars."

  If you are referring to the Woman of the Apocalypse (Revelation 11:19 - 12:1), this has attracted a variety of interpretations; but there is no teaching that Mary rules over the sun, moon, and stars. In fact, I hadn't heard of such a thing until I read it from you.

  Interestingly, though, something similar was said of the OT Joseph, the son of Jacob: (Genesis 37:9) "He had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."

  And that famously bothered the heck out of his brothers. I think that was because they didn't understand the image.

  That same thing seems to be happening here with Mary: you don't understand the image, so you proclaim your own wrong-headed notion, and identify that to be what I believe.

  Did you ask me first?

  Did you ask any Catholic whether this was a true account of their beliefs?

  That is the whole offense in a nutshell: ascribing beliefs to me and to other Catholics, based not on the actual teachings of the Catholic Church, but upon your own unfortunate misunderstandings; and then, what's really unjustifiable, failing to correct this once it's pointed out to you.

  You even repeat the falsehoods, even after being informed that that's not what we believe. That's rude, and aggravating.

  As I said, I don't mind at all if you tell me what your beliefs are. I do mind when you tell me what MY beliefs are, especially when you've got it wrong.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

OK, Mrs. Don-o,

First, I continue to appreciate you.

In regards to your posted items. I am not telling YOU what YOU believe. In fact, you selected items that I didn’t even post to you. No wonder I didn’t know what you referred to in your earlier post.

I am discussing the Catholic Church teachings. You may not like my statements. No problem. There are some of yours I don’t like either. That is what discussions are about.

If I ever say “you believe...”, and it turns out you don’t, go ahead and gripe at me. You have reason.

In this case, the things you’re describing are my explanation of why Catholicism has such error, to a completely different person. I not only do not apologize for that, I think you are misrepresenting my intent - which is at best assuming what I believe - since you cannot read my mind.

I have no idea what is in an individual Catholic FReeper’s brain. I don’t pretend to. Under the Religion Forum guidelines, found at the RM’s page, it says in these discussions we are free to characterize what a group believes. I am doing so.

“That is the whole offense in a nutshell: ascribing beliefs to me and to other Catholics, based not on the actual teachings of the Catholic Church, but upon your own unfortunate misunderstandings; and then, what’s really unjustifiable, failing to correct this once it’s pointed out to you.”

Not you. Not any individual catholic named. Catholicism in general and the group of members known as Catholics. You can point out things. That is a discussion. I am not required to believe your opinion about what you point out.

Then there is this...

“You even repeat the falsehoods, even after being informed that that’s not what we believe. That’s rude, and aggravating.”

I will continue to do so, knowing from my perspective they are not falsehoods. That someone would “inform” me that in there view Catholics believe something different, is interesting and could be discussed, but it doesn’t change the underlying reality.

You may be aggravated seeing Catholic beliefs characterized this way. Great. Perhaps you will see them in a new light, apart from the echo-chamber of rome.

In summary:

Mary IS a demigoddess to Catholics and is treated that way.
They DO idolize Mary, bowing before her. Please read the definition of “idolize.”
Works as a basis of salvation DO put people - good and sincere people - on a hamster wheel of works. Catholics as a group LIVE on the Celestial Hamster Wheel of Works and Guilt.
Religion DOES separate people from the Gospel of Grace and the secure relationship of a son with eternal life.
The accretions of millennia in Catholicism are the accretions of syncratic pagan practices and beliefs. Heck, many of Catholic popes were not believers in Christ.

You go on to write...

“That same thing seems to be happening here with Mary: you don’t understand the image, so you proclaim your own wrong-headed notion, and identify that to be what I believe.”

No. How would you know what I understand, unless you are telling me what I believe?? I see what Catholics do, teach, believe and respond from my knowledge of Christ and the Scriptures. Again, not what YOU believe. I refer to the group.

“Did you ask me first?”

I was not writing to you Mrs. Don-O.

“Did you ask any Catholic whether this was a true account of their beliefs?”

I grew up Catholic and have studied the teachings of Catholicism. Alter boy. Confirmed. I readily admit they do not see what they are doing and would tell you something different. So did I before Christ opened my eyes.

“As I said, I don’t mind at all if you tell me what your beliefs are. I do mind when you tell me what MY beliefs are, especially when you’ve got it wrong. “

And we are back to the main point - I’m not telling you what YOU believe. All I know about what you believe is what you post and defend. Even that, I only assume you believe what you post and defend.

We are not here to discuss what you believe. We are hear discussing Catholicism and what it does and in this instance, how what it teaches and does is not a Christian belief.

None of that is meant as a personal insult to any individual. I can not keep them from taking things personally, even when they are not intended in any personal way. IF this is an issue for any person, the RM suggests they stick to Caucus Threads.

You seem to have a bee up your back this past couple days in your posts. I hope you are well. I wish you well.

Kindest Regards
AMPU

cc: Religion Moderator pinged because I mentioned his/her name