Was The Papacy Established By Christ?

triablogue ^ | June 23, 2006 | Jason Engwer

[Iscool]

all Protestant denominations agree on is that the Roman Catholic Church is not the one true church of God. Protestant denominations are unanimous in rejecting the papacy, the supremacy of Rome, prayer to saints/Mary, worship of saints/Mary, transubstantiation, purgatory, and most other Roman Catholic dogmas. Sola Scriptura has led all Protestant denominations to the same conclusion – the Bible does not teach many of the things Roman Catholics practice/believe.

And more than that, the bible teaches many things that are contrary to the Catholic religion...The practices of the Catholic religion are condemned in the bible...

The Catholic teachings are all based on the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, except where protestants and others misrepresent these teachings.

If that was true there wouldn't be so many millions of non Catholic Christians who reject the Catholic religion based on what the scriptures say...

Here's something Catholics don't know...

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

We Christians have the same Holy Spirit 'in us' as the Holy Spirit you guys claim is leading your pope...We have the same teacher...Neither your popes nor any other Catholic clergy has the authority to understand the scriptures any more than we do...

[ravenwolf]

At the council of Ac.15 it is Peter who again uses the keys of loosening to cast off the Law from the Church:

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I definitely agree, the keys were in the words of Peter and the council based their decision on those words because they knew what Peters job concerning the kingdom was.

Acts 15
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

We can see that it is a far cry from the laws the Jews had and many of the churches have today.

[Iscool]

Jesus told the Apostles Go Baptize and teach all nations.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

And so your religion baptizes everything that's not bolted down...And this is just how rogue your religion is...Your religion conveniently leaves out the companion verse to convince you people that you need to baptize babies...

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

After reading that, do you still think it's all right to baptize babies who can not possibly repent???

[Iscool]

We hear the words of St Paul at almost every Mass throughout the year and the Gospel at every Mass. How could we possibly be ignoring Paul and the Gospel?

Paul under the inspiration of God said to follow him, but you follow Peter...

[Syncro]

If they [Born again believers in Jesus that with all their heart and soul follow Jesus and what He taught] don’t want to believe in the Real Presence...

That phrase to Catholics means Jesus in a small piece of bread, to be consumed or put in a fancy case and worshiped as if it is Jesus.

Certainly Christians will not believe that.

There is no Holy Bible Scripture where that is condoned or even alluded to with out a "clever" twisting of God's Word.

It is not the Born again believers in Jesus that with all their heart and soul follow Jesus and what He taught that "may not be following God’s will."

... But to insist that Jesus is wrong...

Nice Segway, but no Christians are or ever will say that Jesus is wrong.

What is wrong is to insist that Jesus instituted something that is no where to be found in the Word of God.

How very tacky to state what you stated. But I so understand that you have to believe what the Catholic Church teaches even if you have to accuse others falsely of horrible blaspheme.

We do not worship Mary, but we place her in high esteem and defend the Church’s teachings

So you agree with Leo and Pius that salvation can be obtained from Mary? (See an earlier post of mine for documentation.)

As far as your problems with Protestant denominations, I'm not interested. (Catholicism, heal thyself...there is a beam to deal with)

I am not a Protestant.

[ravenwolf]

The words of a heretic: They are a rogue religion that has no basis in scripture.

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As I have not tried to hide it, I agree with some things the Catholics teach and some things the protestants teach.

Not trying to stay in the middle, but can make more people dislike me.

With me it is scripture not denomination.

For instance, and as some one will say( there you go again ) Protestants don`t like me because I believe Jesus was Mary`s only son, but do not have an agenda in mind.

And I also will take what Jesus says above what Paul says if the Protestant`s uses what Paul said to dispute what Jesus said, and they do it all of the time but deny it.

The Catholics don`t like me because I believe Mathew 23 5 through 11 is absolutely literal, meaning titles.

And I believe the eating of the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus was never intended to be taken literally.

[Iscool]

“As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

Depends on what perversion of the bible you are using...

1 Cor. 1:18 For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God.

2 Cor. 2:15 For we are the good odour of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish.

You guys even resort to perverting the official scriptures of your own Catholic religion...The above scriptures are Jerome's scriptures...

[Iscool]

The whole passage reads, “But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.

That's not what the verse says...Apparently you are used to talking to people who don't own a bible, and are unable to 'check you out'...

[ravenwolf]

Which is exactly the same thing Protestants do. Whoever keeps posting these threads for the pure sake of causing arguments would do well to remember Jesus’s words of pull the plank from your own eye before trying to remove the splinter from another. Clean your own house and the evil that is lurking within it. Then come criticize ours.

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True.

[dhs12345]

Please understand that I wish to not offend with the following questions. But there are a few things that don't seem to reconcile with the Bible.

Catholics pray to the Saints which seems to go against of the premise that only through Christ is salvation. A saint is person who was chosen by the Catholic church hierarchy, not God, to represent God.

One of the ten commandments clearly states that thou shalt have no gods before me; thou shalt not make idols.

A Pope, a Bishop, or even the priest cannot offer salvation. So confessing your sins to another “flawed sinner” is a misdirection. And doing penance as instructed by your priest is also wrong. A priest cannot offer absolution of sin and for a priest claim the same is sacrilegious.

[imardmd1]

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

You forgot the "only" part:

" I will give you ONLY the keys . . ."

Or was that added later? /s

[Springfield Reformer]

Now, should every member of the SB convention leave because of sinful, wicked pastors?

No, because Baptists don't make the same claim as Catholics.  When I was in Virginia, our fellowship (baptistic but not SB) disciplined one of the associate pastors for sexual sin.  It is sadly a very common problem.  But it didn't ever occur to us to leave, because no pastor there nor any SB or other Baptist pastor I know of claims to be the sole Vicar of Christ on earth. The paradigm is different.  From our point of view the only infallible representative of God on earth, as a living person, is the Holy Spirit. But for a man to claim the Vicarship and then fail to live up to that claim is to do far more damage than any mere pastor with moral failure could ever do.  It is a claim that directly affronts the Person of Christ Himself.  It is high blasphemy.

But I understand the defensive claim, I think.  It's the office that's supposedly infallibly representative, not the man.  And so one may theoretically separate the representation of Christ from the reality of the man who is supposedly the representative. He could be any old evil blaggard and still serve as the Vicar of Christ. If you feel comfortable with that, that's your choice.  But to me it represents a justification for ecclesiastical schizophrenia. I would never have imagined reading through the NT after my conversion a situation where Christ would intentionally vest all His authority on earth in a man driven by Satanic impulses.  There is something really wrong with that picture.

But as for me and mine, our "Vicar of Christ" is no fallible pastor nor fallible Roman pontifex maximus reincarnated, but is the truly infallible, living, sinless Holy Spirit, who is the only one ever officially presented in Scripture as the true replacement for Christ on earth while He is away preparing to receive us into Heaven:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(John 16:7-8)

Peace,

SR

[ADSUM]

Saints are those in Heaven with Christ. So I expect some of my ancestors are in Heaven with God and they are saints including my mother and grandparents. There are canonized saints that have gone through a process that the Catholic Church declares them a saint . Such as ST. Pope John Paul II, ST. John XXIII, ST Christopher, etc.

Just as a mother prays to God on behalf of her children or herself, we pray to the Blessed Mother and the saints to listen to us and also pray to God for us.

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

Why not pray directly to Jesus?” they ask.
The answer is: “Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!” But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well.

Catholics do not worship anyone but God.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s finished work on Calvary, but how is this pardon received by individuals? Did Christ leave us any means within the Church to take away sin? The Bible says he gave us two means.

Baptism was given to take away the sin inherited from Adam (original sin) and any sins we personally committed before baptism—sins we personally commit are called actual sins, because they come from our own acts.

For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. It has been called penance, confession, and reconciliation, each word emphasizing one of its.aspects. During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, “the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God “had given such authority to men” (Matt. 9:8).

Since he would not always be with the Church visibly, Christ gave this power to other men so the Church, which is the continuation of his presence throughout time (Matt. 28:20), would be able to offer forgiveness to future generations. He gave his power to the apostles, and it was a power that could be passed on to their successors and agents, since the apostles wouldn’t always be on earth either, but people would still be sinning.

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, “‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’” (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-forgiveness-of-sins

Jesus delegated the authority to forgive sins to Bishops and Priests. Yes, we gain salvation and eternal life with God through the sacrifice on the cross by Jesus.

[ADSUM]

a careful examination of the context of Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn’t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, “But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ” (Matt. 23:8–10).

The first problem is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term “teacher,” in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth” (1 Tim. 2:7); “For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher” (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: “God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers” (1 Cor. 12:28); and “his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers” (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as “teachers.”

Why do you believe that when Jesus stated “that His Body and Blood was food and drink for eternal life” were not to be taken literally?

You may wish to read the following article.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-real-presence

[2nd amendment mama]

Placemarker

[ADSUM]

You are not required to believe in the Truth.

Your comment: “That phrase to Catholics means Jesus in a small piece of bread, to be consumed or put in a fancy case and worshiped as if it is Jesus.”

Yes for your information that is Jesus both divine and human and deserves to be worshiped as God.

Many walked away from Christ because of His statement and no longer followed Him.

It is amazing that some profess belief in Jesus and that they are saved before they die, yet fail to understand the words that Jesus spoke directly about His Body and Blood several times and offered them to the Apostles at the Last Supper (the Real Presence).

I do hope you find salvation and the Truth.

[ADSUM]

I thought you knew that God was everywhere and He knows all that you are doing.

[terycarl]

f unanimous internet users. And yes you can take that to the bank.

Anonymous...

[daniel1212]

The Church was freed from the Law, and God again honored that decision as loosed in heaven. That is the extent of the binding and loosing that Peter had with the keys given to him by Christ - the keys to bind and loose the Law on the Church. That is simply unwarranted and far too restrictive. Binding and loosing are not new functions, but flow from the OT. The magisterium therein issued binding judgments (to bind or loose), dissent from which was a capital crime. (Dt. 17:8-13) Even a father could bind or loose his daughter, and a husband his wife, from vows within a period that she made it.

And her father hear her vow, and her bond wherewith she hath bound her soul, and her father shall hold his peace at her: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she hath bound her soul shall stand. (Numbers 30:4)

Elijah bound the heavens for 3.5 years and then loosed them, and who James invokes as an example of what believers can do in James 5: 16-18)

[ravenwolf]

The first problem is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term “teacher,” in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you

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I see no problem there at all, the Jews were fond of being called Master, teacher or Rabi and obviously father they were teaching nobody but was enjoying the title and living style of some one important.

Jesus told his apostles to go out and preach the gospel with out attaching titles to them selves, they were to preach the gospel not build up their own names.

That is most likely why most of them are not heard from again but the gospel was preached.

Paul, that may be a different story as far as I am concerned.

Another example of the Catholic doctrine coming from Paul while Peter is just a figure head.