If You Give a Gal a Bishopric…

R.C. Sproul Jr. ^ | 6-15-15 | R.C. Sproul Jr.

[HossB86]

So it's not like the Catechism is conferring approval on Islam. In fact, "Islam" (as a religious system) is not even mentioned: the point of reference here is "Muslims" --- the people themselves, not Muhammad, not the Koran, not their erroneous faith. Every religion has some garbled fragments of truth mixed in with it --- didn't Paul speak of this at the Areopagus? --- and we affirm only the fragments of truth: One God, Creator, Judge.

No. Not quite. It's a nice side-step, but still blasphemous. Equivocation of "Muslim" vs "Islam" is something Rome can do all day and it still does not change the fact that 841 says Roman Catholics and Muslims worship the 'same merciful God.' Say what you want... it will not change the fact that this statement says exactly what it says: but the problem is that it must work either one way or another.

To say that all religious systems worship the God of the Bible, but in some erroneous way or some fragmented way is not accurate. Do Satanists worship an erroneous fragment of God Almighty but confuse him with Satan? Heaven forbid! They worship Satan. Buddhists do not worship the God of the Bible in some erroneous form; they worship Buddha. A false god. As do Taoists, Mormons, Muslims, and seemingly (at least the way it's written) Catholics. To claim that Catholics and Muslims worship the same 'God' is to invite blasphemy because Muslims do NOT worship the God of the Bible in even an erroneous form; they worship Satan. That's the way it works: you either worship God, or you don't - and if you don't, who's left?

Right. The Devil.

Now, in Acts 17, they worshipped the "unknown god." They didn't know WHO they worshipped. Paul brought the Gospel and told them, using the altar there as a jumping off point...kinda like, 'hey -- you worship the 'unknown god' -- let me tell you about the REAL God...." The Greeks didn't worship the God of the Bible erroneously -- they worshipped false gods... and remember: if you're not worshipping God, who are you worshipping (in one form or another)?

Right. The Devil. Whether it's Juno, or Apollo, or Buddha, or the souls of the departed... or money, or status... it all has its roots back to the Devil.

CCC 841 sure does seem to indicate that Catholics worship some other god. And that's sad.

It does not say they hold the faith of Abraham, it says they "profess" to hold the faith of Abraham.

I say toe-may-toe, you say toh-mah-toe....it says what it says. By saying it implies that there is a conflation of faith. You don't have to like it, but that's what it says.

Again, error. Heinous error. Just like CCC 969. Mary is dead. She is in Heaven (no doubt), but she hears no prayer -- she provides no intercession and gives no grace and provides nothing in the way of salvation -- ALL of those things are done by Christ and him alone.

If 969 is wrong, and it is... and 841 is wrong, and it is, how much more is wrong?

Far, far, far too much.

Hoss

[Mrs. Don-o]

Is delight!

Thank you for such a good response.

I'm going to respond a little better, later. Right now it's past my bedtime. I feel a tremendous debt of gratitude, a "prayer debt" because so many people stormed Heaven for me, and my life was hauled back from the brink of death.

The EMT guy said he never expected to see me get out of the ER alive.

And when I had the courage, finally, to look up "septic shock" online, I learned that the mortality rate is 80%.

Thanks to the ICU and the Rehab people --- who should all get Congressional Medals of Honor --- I have made a wonderful recovery. I don't have all my strength and stamina back, but I am walking, breathing, sleeping, even singing, though my range is down half an octave. They tell me that happens when you're recovering from mechanical ventilation. I may have to quit the Altos and join the my husband in the Basses!

I garden, in a manner of speaking, and my garden is overrun with rampant, opportunistic, transgressive bindweed. That's because I can't weed: can't kneel and get up, though I'm getting better balanced for bending. I may let the bindweed stay, though. It looks better than the cultivars it invaded and smothered, and beautifully withstands the sustained heat that's wilted everything else.

More tomorrow.

G'Night, my friend.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"It can only be participation if it were ongoing." Not so. That is temporal thinking. God's actions are beyond time and space.

[HossB86]

"It can only be participation if it were ongoing." Not so. That is temporal thinking. God's actions are beyond time and space.

Not sure, but I can't find that statement anywhere in 121... Maybe supposed to be to another poster? Or have I forgotten what I wrote? :)

Hoss

[Mrs. Don-o]

"To say that all religious systems worship the God of the Bible...

I didn't say that, and neither did the Catechism. Rather, more accurately, it was that the monotheistic religions who worship the Creator of All, worship God, our God, He Who Is.

That would include Christians, Jews and Muslims. (Personal opinion: they're not mentioned in the Catechism, but I think it would also include the Bahai's, CaoDais and Sikhs, as well as some of the monotheist native America groups, those who worship the One Creator God under the name of Manitou.)

Many monotheists, nevertheless, though they know God as the One Creator, subscribe also to grave errors. Today's Rabbinical/Talmudist Jews explicitly reject Jesus Christ. Muslims honor "Īsā ibn Maryām" as a great prophet but not as God and Savior of the World, and deny the Trinity; and the more "observant" of Islam that they are, the more misled by error they are. Islam is one religion where increased "devotion" produces ever-deepening theological errors and moral corruption.

I did NOT say (and the Catechism did not say) that polytheists, dualists or pantheists worship the One God. Even they would not say they did. I'm guessing that would include Mormonism (eh, you'll get different opinions here, but the Catholic Church says they are outside of Trinity-monotheism), Hinduism, the Roman and Greek pantheons, Manicheeism and other dualisms, etc.

None of this suggests creedal indifferentism, or even syncretism. It's just a way of discerning what elements of truth may be present, and disentangling them from the elements of error. Even believers of Voudoun know that life is spiritual, which makes them more perspicacious than materialists like Ayn Rand or Carl Sagan.

It's not wrong to look for areas of agreement. Truth builds on truth. Jesus Christ is the unique, singular, only Savior of the World. I think you and I can agree on that.

[HossB86]

Just taking it from this:

Every religion has some garbled fragments of truth mixed in with it -— didn’t Paul speak of this at the Areopagus? -— and we affirm only the fragments of truth: One God, Creator, Judge.

Hoss

[CynicalBear]

>>That would include Christians, Jews and Muslims.<<

Well, that should make you right comfortable in chrislam.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Well, that should make you right comfortable in chrislam."

False assertion about me --- and dumb. The fact that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are monotheistic does not mean they are merge-able. YOU don't think they're merge-able, do you? Neither do I --- nor does anyone I know.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You quoted me correctly here. Did you want to comment?

[CynicalBear]

>>YOU don't think they're merge-able, do you? Neither do I --- nor does anyone I know.<<

It doesn't matter. You're "vicar of Christ" does.

[HossB86]

Every religion has some garbled fragments of truth mixed in with it

You quoted me correctly here. Did you want to comment?

Well, sure. Why not. If Islam has garbled fragments of truth, what truth? Which truth? God's truth? Then that is to conflate some aspect of Islam with God Almighty.

There is nothing there there... Mohammedans worship Satan.

"Every religion...." -- really? Not Buddhism. Not Taoism. They are NOT of God. And if it's NOT of God, who is it of?

Satan.

So it was an extrapolation of what you said -- if there are "garbled fragments of truth" then there must be some "garbled" worship of God. And there is not.

Better?

Hoss