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To: Mrs. Don-o
That term *grace* in John 1:14 is not the same in the Greek as the one used for Mary.

And Jesus is full of grace, to be given out.

Believers are given the same grace as Mary. The same word is used in the Greek in Ephesians.

The word grace used in this passage in Luke is used in one other place in the Bible and that is Ephesians 1 where Paul is us that with this same grace, God has blessed us (believers) in the Beloved. IOW, we all have access to that grace and it has been bestowed on us all.

http://biblehub.com/greek/5487.htm

Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”

Ephesians 1:4-6 In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Greek word “grace”

charitoó: to make graceful, endow with grace

Original Word: χαριτόω

Part of Speech: Verb

Transliteration: charitoó

Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)

Short Definition: I favor, bestow freely on

Definition: I favor, bestow freely on.

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 5487 xaritóō (from 5486 /xárisma, "grace," see there) – properly, highly-favored because receptive to God's grace. 5487 (xaritóō) is used twice in the NT (Lk 1:28 and Eph 1:6), both times of God extending Himself to freely bestow grace (favor).

Word Origin: from charis

Definition: to make graceful, endow with grace

NASB Translation: favored (1), freely bestowed (1).

205 posted on 05/02/2015 1:25:58 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom
You are quite right, metmom, when you say that the word "grace" in English doesn't tell us quite as much as the different forms of the word in Greek, which has a far more sophisticated grammar and can use its terms with distinctly different senses.

Thank you or your attention to this fact.

(If I am repeating something I said before, please forgive me. I don't always read everything on the thread, and I assume that must be true for others as well. I'd never get outside into the beautiful May air if I did that!)

(Stick your head out the door and look at those Irises!)

This is how I understand it. Although the same or similar words, "full" or "filled" with grace, are used for three different people in the NT (Jesus, Mary, and the deacon Stephen), it does not mean exactly the same for all three. If it did, we'd be saying that the blessedness of Jesus, Mary, and Stephen are indistinguishable, identical -- which cannot be, as I'm sure you'll agree.

How can they be distinguished, then?

The Greek grammar shows how.

Kecharitomene used in Luke to refer to Marym is a Greek perfect, passive, participle, which could literally be translated "having been graced," since the root of the word is "charis", which means grace.

In contrast, Ephesians 1:6, where Paul refers to Jesus Christ, uses the aorist, active, indicative echaritosen, meaning "he graced."

See the difference? Mary, passive voice, she received grace; Jesus, active voice, "He graced." This is due to the fact that Jesus is a Divine person; on a far lower scale, Mary is a human person, a creature and handmaid.

In Luke 1:28 "Kecharitomene" is nominative or titular, since it follows the greeting "Chaire" ---"Hail [name or title] --- thus the name would ordinarily be capitalized in English translations, just as you would capitalize "Kate Middleton" or "Duchess of Windsor."

"Kecharitomene" is who or what Mary IS.

The unique feature of Kecharitomene is that it is in the Greek perfect tense, denoting that the state of grace began in past time, by a completed action (hence "fully" accomplished), whose results continue in the present. A suitable translation to denote all these features might be "Fully-Graced One." The Greek passive voice denotes that Mary received the title from an outside source, in this case, Almighty God.

The New Testament uses the Greek "pleres charitos" ("full of grace") to describe Jesus (John 1:14) and Stephen (Acts 6:8), but these usages are not as specific to time, agent and continuity as Kecharitomene. Again, a feature of Greek grammar.

220 posted on 05/02/2015 2:55:07 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." - 1 Timothy 3:15)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; metmom
Well, seeing how you fabricated talking points regarding Peter in your post 175 which I have shown to be wrong why should we trust your understanding of the Greek in these verses. I have shown you before where you are in error in your talking points on this issue. But as you persist in posting false information again on this, I will clean it up for you and the readers.

Although the same or similar words, "full" or "filled" with grace, are used for Jesus, for Mary, and for St. Stephen, it does not mean exactly the same for all three. If it did, we'd be in the position of saying that the blessedness of Jesus, Mary, and St. Stephen are indistinguishable, identical -- which they are not, as I'm sure you'll agree.

How can they be distinguished, then?

The Greek grammar shows how.

Kecharitomene is a Greek perfect, passive, participle, which could literally be translated "having been graced," since the root of the word is "charis", which means grace. Ephesians 1:6, which refers to Jesus Christ, uses the aorist, active, indicative echaritosen, meaning "he graced."

The root verb in use is χαριτόω It means highly favored because receptive to God’s grace (HELPS Word-studies). The root word for grace is χάρισμα. It means a gift of grace, an undeserved favor.

The word in our discussion, χαριτόω, is used twice in the NT; Luke 1:28 and Ephesians 1:28.

In Luke the actual word used is κεχαριτωμένη. It is being used in the greeting of the angel to Mary. It is not a title contrary to what catholics like to claim. Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη! Greetings, you favored with grace!

Χαῖρε is a present imperative active verb.

The imperative mood is important in this situation as has suppressed its original injunctive force and is reduced to an exclamation. This especially occurs in greetings; which is what this is: A GREETING! To be clear for the catholic: This is not a title given to Mary.

κεχαριτωμένη is a perfect participle in the middle/passive voice. It is in the passive voice indicating something is done to the subject, in this case Mary. Now, what was done to her? She has been favored with grace in that she has been chosen to be the one to give birth to the Messiah. The catholic likes to make a big deal that this usage of the word is unique in the NT. I agree it is but not for the reason the catholic claims.

IT IS THE ONLY TIME JESUS WILL BE BORN. This is why it’s unique. No other woman will be chosen to do this nor will this event occur again. The proper focus should be on Christ in this situation….not Mary.

The perfect participle is translated with the understanding of a completed event that has occurred in the past with results continuing into the present…..from the vantage point of the writer/speaker….not the reader. This is key to understanding this.

From Luke’s perspective, as he was the writer, this was a completed event with results continuing into his present. The text does not indicate an eternal time frame from the beginning of time as suggested by the catholic.

Now, to the next point.

The catholic claims a difference between the usage in Luke 1:28 and Ephesians 1:6 as noted in the post below. See the difference? Mary, passive voice, she received grace; Jesus, active voice, "He graced." This is due to the fact that Jesus is a Divine person; Mary is a human person, a creature and handmaid.

However, this misses the point. In both cases the grace is from above. Mary has been graced by God for this event. The believers in Ephesians have been graced by Christ. In either case, the grace is from above. The tense in Ephesians is in the aorist which indicates the event happened. We do not have a time reference only that it happened. In Luke 1:28 "Kecharitomene" is nominative or titular, since it follows the greeting "Chaire" ---"Hail [name or title] --- thus the name would automatically be capitalized in English translations.

This next part has already been addressed but to clarify. This is not a title given to Mary how matter how much the catholic wants, wishes, prays it to be. It is not supported by the Greek. The unique feature of Kecharitomene is that it is in the Greek perfect tense, denoting that the state of grace began in past time, by a completed action (hence "fully" accomplished), whose results continue in the present. A suitable translation to denote all these features might be "Fully-Graced One." The Greek passive voice denotes that Mary received the title from an outside source, in this case, ALmighty God.

The New Testament uses the Greek "pleres charitos" ("full of grace") to describe Jesus (John 1:14) and Stephen (Acts 6:8), but these usages are not as specific to time, agent and continuity as Kecharitomene.

Actually the reference to Stephen is πλήρης χάριτος καὶ δυνάμεως, “full grace and power”. We would translate as “full of grace and power.”

In either case Stephen received his grace and power from God.

Would we not expect Jesus to be full of grace and truth?

It is merely the catholic trying to substantiate their claim regarding Mary. The key to understanding all of this is proper context.

Regarding the comments below….again…..Mary’s name was not changed!! Like all of the name changes in the Bible, it indicates the person's status as seen by God, the person's predestined giftedness in order to be equipped to play their role in God's plan: • Abram ---> Abraham (Father of Nations) • Sarai ---> Sarah (Princess) • Jacob ---> Israel (Wrestles with God) • Simon ---> Cephas (Rock)

The same is true when Mary is addressed (nominative or titular) as Kecharitomene (Fully-Graced One).

Again, Mary is not being addressed with a new title in Luke 1:28. If the casual reader takes nothing else away from this post, remember this: IT IS NOT A TITLE!

The following has already been addressed above.

It's the only place in the Bible --- the only place in all of Greek literature ---where this word is used as a form of address. It's unique. It doesn't make her equal to God (passive voice: it's been done unto her) and not identical to what's said of Stephen, because it's

The following has already been addressed above.

> • past (the state of grace completed in past time), • perfect (a completed and accomplished action), • continuing (its results continue into the present), • nominative (name/ title bestowed by an outside agent, in this case, God.)

This unique neologism Kecharitomene is the best Greek word that could have been invented by Divine inspiration to indicate Mary's sinlessness, her being equipped to play her role as the natural source of Christ's human nature, His flesh: human, yet untainted by sin. No other Greek formulation could have conveyed it all.

249 posted on 05/02/2015 5:12:41 PM PDT by ealgeone
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