Posted on 04/28/2015 6:01:54 PM PDT by Salvation
1) faith/righteousness = Ge.15
2) circumcision = Ge.17
3) Isaac incident = Ge.22
1) faith/righteousness
2) refuses to get circumcised
3) reconsiders and gets circumcised
4) refuses to kill Isaac
Would Abraham have lost his righteousness at step 2), regained it at step 3), then lose it again at step 4)?
Would he have been considered to have never had righteousness at 2) and then credited with righteousness at 3) only to have been considered to have never had righteousness at 4)?
Or does it work some other way?
Interesting proposition. It has a nice feel to it.
2. Sacred Tradition is “the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation.” (Dei Verbum, n. 2).
Poor edit from the Die Verbum. Here's the full quote.
This plan of revelation is realized by deeds and words having an inner unity: the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation manifest and confirm the teaching and realities signified by the words, while the words proclaim the deeds and clarify the mystery contained in them.
Actually it's a horrible edit from the Die Verbum and destroys the article.
Sacred Tradition is infallible because it is the deeds of the Infallible and Most Holy Trinity.
I have no idea where this assertion comes from. The words proclaim the deeds. The deeds are not an oral tradition, but taken from scripture. No need to even think about the infallible part because sacred tradition is not equal to the deeds wrought by God.
You have the false idea that Catholics come up with their teachings with no reference to the Bible. On the question of the infallibility of the pope and the church:
John 14: 16-17, 26: "I will ask the Father and he will give you another Paraclete—to be with you always; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, since it neither sees him nor recognizes him because he remains with you and will be within you . . . . the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send will remind you of all that I have told you"Now you may not accept the Catholic understanding of these passages but honesty would require you to acknowledge that Catholics do see these as establishing the Biblical foundation of the doctrine of infallibility.John 16:14: "When the Spirit of truth comes He will guide you to all truth"
Luke 10:16: "He who hears you, hears me"
Mt. 16:19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven
Matthew 23:1-3: Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.
(**NOTE - Just as the scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, the Pope sits on the chair of Peter. And notice how Jesus told everyone to obey the scribes and the Pharisees, even though they were sinners. Just so, we have to obey the Pope in matters of faith and morals in the Church, even if the Pope is a sinner).Acts 15:28: "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things".
In addition, it is only because of this infallibility of the church that we can have assurance of what should be considered Sacred Scripture in the first place. Without it you have to resort to an a priori acceptance of the canon of Scripture before you can appeal to it as an authority.
As for sola scriptura, I will repeat to you what you said to me: "Of course I would expect you to believe this kind of thing, since you are required to believe it. My point is that as an argument, it is ineffective unless you have prebelief in it as a truth. We find no such evidence in Scripture."
Petronius-
None of those verses says the church - any church - is infallible. Every Christian has the I dwelling Spirit to guide them into truth.
I see that the Catholic Church comes up with belief first and then back fills it using whatever it takes to make it appear biblical. Your verses are an example of this eisogesis.
Again, we have the sovereignty of God as the foundation of confidence in the accuracy and preservation of his word.
Best
Christ is described in Scripture as The Word of God.
This is only your interpretation of those verses, an interpretation that you yourself should not claim is infallible. Nowhere does the Bible say that it is the individual as opposed to the church that is guided by the Holy Spirit to the truth. This is your a priori assumption.
As for the authority of the Church:
• Matthew 16:19 was addressed to a single individual, Peter.
• Luke 10:16 was addressed to the appointed 72, not to the all the disciples.
• John 14 was again addressed to only the twelve Apostles, not to all the disciples.
• Matthew 23:1-3 refers to the authority of those who hold a teaching office among the faithful.
• Acts 15:28 was a decree of the apostles and presbyters gathered in Jerusalem addressed to the church in Antioch. These were those who held a visible office in the church and who specifically invoked the authority of the Holy Spirit in giving their instruction.
No, these passages do indeed show a visible and hierarchical church teaching with the authority of the Holy Spirit itself. But what if we were to take your position that "every Christian has the I dwelling Spirit to guide them into truth?" Would this not also apply to the half of the world's Christians who are Catholic. If they come to conclusions about the meaning of Scripture that differs from yours, who are you to claim that you are guided by the Holy Spirit and have the truth and they are not?
Again, we have the sovereignty of God as the foundation of confidence in the accuracy and preservation of his word.
Yes, but by what means does he exercise this authority? By each individual contradicting one other or by the church that He established and with which He provided a visible leadership?
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
We are to even check those who would purport to teach.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
The admonition has always been that it's the individual. The Catholic Church lies when it usurps the responsibility of the individual
Peter -passed into glory and no longer on earth
72 - gone
12 - gone
None were infallible.
Yor other point about the in dwelling Spirit allying to every believer has already been addressed.
You seem quite worried about whether Christians agree on 100% of Scripture. They never will. The Apostle Paul addressed this in the Epistles.
As to your point about the catholic denomination ... Assuming a portion are saved, they have the Holy Spirit within to guide them as they seek guidance. true of all denominations. This never means you have a license to distort God’s Word.
In addition to His Spirit, He has also gifted His assemblies with Pastors and teachers to guide and discipline when necessary. Paul addresses this in the Epistles as does Peter.
Many people confuse the two terms
impeccable
and
infalliable.
Many people confuse the Gospel of Grace with works-based salvation. A tragic loss.
John was writing about the specific question of accepting Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God. If it were about the immediate teaching of the individual about all truth then there would be no need for John himself to give instruction. All John is saying is that they should hold to the truth of who Jesus is as they have received it and not to be persuaded by those who would deny it.
Acts 17:11 praised the Jews in Thessalonica for studying scripture. But notice that what they are studying is if what they have been instructed by Paul was in accord with scripture. Catholics too have studies the Scriptures to see if what they have been taught by the Church is so and have come the the conclusion that yes, it is so. And one of those things that the Scriptures point to is the ability of the Church to teach with the authority of the Holy Spirit.
If all Christians have been anointed with the Holy Spirit to infallibly interpret Scripture, why does this not apply to the half of the world's Christians who are Catholic?
Acts 1 shows that their office survives their deaths and that others were chosen to fill it. Indeed, the letter from the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 was not by the apostles alone but by "the apostles and presbyters." The apostles were already appointing others to share in their authority for the governance of the church.
This statement is directly contradicted by the Die Verbum.
n. 10 Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God
Sacred tradition is word.
n. 2 This plan of revelation is realized by deeds and words having an inner unity
Deeds are not words.
n. 2 the words proclaim the deeds and clarify the mystery contained in them
So no, sacred tradition is not the deeds wrought by God. Sacred tradition should proclaim the deeds and clarify the mystery.
“Acts 1 shows that their office survives their deaths and that others were chosen to fill it.
There you go! You have God’s template for choosing a replacement Apostle!
He must have been with Christ and the other Apostles from the beginning, must have two such candidates nominated, and you must cast lots to determine the new Apostle.
Unfortunately, candidates meeting those qualifications are all gone to glory. This is why the Epistles call the Apostles the foundation stones.
“Indeed, the letter from the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 was not by the apostles alone but by “the apostles and presbyters.” The apostles were already appointing others to share in their authority for the governance of the church.”
Elders are a Church office. They were appointed in each church. We still have elders today.
Best.
Clearly such a candidate would be preferable while available. This does not, however, imply that their office would cease once these no longer existed. By your reasoning Paul himself would not qualify as an apostle.
Elders are a Church office. They were appointed in each church. We still have elders today.
Not true, they were appointed for each church.
For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you. (Titus 1:5)The presbyters were not appointed by the local congregation but by one who had already been invested with the apostolic authority to do so.
Only if salvation is performance-based. But it is faith-based in God as savior, not in doing or not doing the right or wrong actions. If after Ge.15 Abraham had refused to obey God, God would have found another to make a patriarch that would. In fact, Noah may have been God’s first choice, and Abraham His second. But Noah is still credited with righteousness (from before he built the ark) based on the same faith as Abraham.
So you are saying that if we have faith, we are saved even when, through our human frailty, we commit acts against God or we do not do what Jesus tells us to do in Matthew 25:31-46?
Jesus does not tell us what we need to do, but what we will do. Notice the motivation of the sheep, Lord, when did we see you... The sheep were not trying to earn a reward with their action.
Without faith, nothing that we do is pleasing to God. When we are saved by grace, through faith, we do good works. The sheep didn't do the good works to earn heaven, but because it was a natural fruit of their faith.
Notice verse 34: Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
The sheep are blessed. Verse 34 does not say, "Come, you who earned the reward."
It's not that the goats didn't do good works, it's that the goats couldn't do good works without faith.
I am not saying it. The Bible says it.
Let’s get back to James to answer your question. James throughout his epistle expects his readers to keep the Law of the Old Covenant. Of course this cannot be done, because as Peter observed in Acts, no one can keep the Law. No one can be saved by dos and don’ts - just as Abraham was not credited with righteousness because of his dos and don’ts, but for his faith.
Mt.25 is a description of what people of faith do, not what people do to be saved. This is confirmed when you read their incredulous response in verses 37 to 39.
Good explanation.
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