Posted on 03/20/2015 6:36:17 PM PDT by Steelfish
You need to seriously read the Word and quit studying catholic theology.
What do the writers of the New Testament; Paul, Peter, John, Luke, Matthew, Mark, James have in common?
Not one mentioned the immaculate conception nor did they even hint at it. Nor did they mention the "assumption" of Mary. None even hint at all of the super abilities the catholic church has bestowed upon Mary.
Just because someone is a contemporary of someone doesn't mean they cannot be without error. I note that Peter was corrected by Paul as Peter was refusing to eat with the Gentiles. We also know there was a lot of false teaching the church was battling at the time the NT was being written. That battle continues today.
Catholic apologists admit there is NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for this false notion fostered by catholicism.
http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6056
No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.
http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6056
In regard to the sinlessness of Mary the older Fathers are very cautious: some of them even seem to have been in error on this matter. (yeah, they understood she had sin so the catholic church calls them in error!)
So all the catholic can cling to on this issue is a lot of "it seems like", "it should be" and "it stands to reason". That's pretty weak justification for such a profound false doctrine.
False catholic teaching has ascribed the following to Mary: co-redemtrix, helper, advocate. Slowly but surely Mary is replacing Christ and the Holy Spirit in the catholic church.
Only Christ is our Redeemer and Advocate.
The Holy Spirit is our Helper and Advocate.
Mary, a mortal human being, cannot be involved in any of this. Yet, many in catholic church are wanting a fifth marian dogma to proclaim her as all of these and let it be official church dogma.
The whole issue revolves around who do you put your focus on and your reliance upon. Jesus or Mary? It cannot be both. If you say both, then Mary has been elevated, or more correctly, Jesus has been reduced.
Satan would love nothing more than for people to pray to Mary and rely upon Mary. Why? Because then they are not praying to or relying upon Christ. And that is, and has been, Satan's aim: to distract people away from Christ and what He does for us.
Mary will be greatly distressed when she rises from the dead at the Resurrection and discovers that prideful men had built a world-wide religion incorporating a pagan goddess bearing Mary’s name and continuously claimed to have drunk her son’s literal blood and ate his literal body, although His blood had been shed and His body resurrected and ascended to the right hand of God the Father.
Now he should read pre-Vatican II documents on religious liberty and true ecumenism.
You must have missed Boatbums' post #33. Protestants trust the infallibility of the Holy Spirit to protect the Word, not the infallibility of the early Church Fathers, nor the infallibility of any institutional church. We trust that the Holy Spirit protected God's Word throughout the human process.
There is nothing inconsistent with accepting the truths of the Apostles' Creed while questioning some undocumented legends about its origins. That is exactly what all these scholars with whom you seem to be so impressed do as a vocation. Whether actually created by the Apostles or a later creation, it is a wonderful summary of the Christian faith. A scholar would also realize that if the word "catholic" is included that it would be the small "c" version of the word meaning universal.
But you can’t have both.
In a true dilemma, that would be correct but not in a false dilemma like you laid out.
Thanks for your reply.
I agree with you regarding the Catholic church as the one founded by Christ which is the foundation of Christianity.
I wrote the above message in order to try to tone down the frequent bashing of each other’s positions here FR.
You write: “Protestants trust the infallibility of the Holy Spirit to protect the Word, not the infallibility of the early Church.”
But this makes no sense. Christ entrusted His infallibility to the Church He founded. He established ONE truth. If you doubt the infallibility of the Church, then you must doubt the canonical texts because it is the Church that assembled the canonical texts in the Synod of Rome in AD 382 some ELEVEN centuries before Protestantism.
So according to you, before the Reformation the Holy Spirit was either not at work, or was misleading the Church founded by Christ. Either conclusion is an absurdity. And if you think Protestants trust the Holy Spirt, then you may wonder how several thousand branches of Protestantism has had this trust misplaced. It is also lethal since that is what Jim Jones and David Koresh taught as well.
How you lightly dismiss the conversion to Catholicism of pre-eminent Lutheran scholars, theologians, and preachers betrays a view commonly held: namely that Bible Christians are “comfortable” only in the shallow end of the theological swimming pool, you try taking them to the deep end and either they do want to go there or if they do they drown or stay afloat by converting to Catholicism as did the author of “Why I Left Protestantism For Catholicism.”
“As matter of curiosity, why do you suppose that there was a Protestant Revolution, as the nuns of my youth used to call it, in the Church in the West where there was/is Petrine Authority and no such thing in the Church in the East where there isn’t and never was any Petrine authority, at least not as it is being defined here?”
The base problem is that while there are vast superficial differences between Protestantism and Catholicism, at the core they subscribe to the same authority principal. This is why it is sometimes observed by the more polemical Orthodox that Protestants and Catholics are really two sides of the same coin. All Protestants are crypto-Papists and the Roman Catholic Church was the first Protestant denomination. They all believe in the authority of an individual person to interpret scripture and doctrine infallibly. The only real difference being in the number of Popes they have. Protestants have millions, with wholly predictable results. While Catholics only have one, though they have at times had long and bitter disputes over who that one is/was.
That approach to authority is antithetical to Orthodoxy where it is the Church as a whole that decides important doctrinal issues with the sensus fidelium guided by Scripture, the Creed, the Fathers and Holy Tradition, often, though not always, expressed in the decrees of the OEcumenical Synods.
Not quite what I said but I'll respond to it anyway. Any collection of humans is capable of error unless the Holy Spirit leads them "to all truth."
Christ entrusted His infallibility to the Church He founded. He established ONE truth. If you doubt the infallibility of the Church, then you must doubt the canonical texts because it is the Church that assembled the canonical texts in the Synod of Rome in AD 382 some ELEVEN centuries before Protestantism.
To the extent that any institutional church acted infallibility, it was due to the Holy Spirit's work who is the active agent of infallibility. To the extent that the Synod at Rome acted correctly, it was the Holy Spirit who guided them to that truth (John 16:13).
When a tree forks, both forks have a claim on the trunk. Protestants can trace their spiritual lineage back to the Apostles as well as the Catholics can. Prior to the Protestant Reformation, we share a common heritage. The RCC has no right to claim this as their exclusive property. The Synod at Rome is part of the Protestant's heritage as well.
So according to you
WARNING, WARNING, WARNING. A straw man argument is coming.
before the Reformation the Holy Spirit was either not at work, or was misleading the Church founded by Christ. Either conclusion is an absurdity. And if you think Protestants trust the Holy Spirt, then you may wonder how several thousand branches of Protestantism has had this trust misplaced. It is also lethal since that is what Jim Jones and David Koresh taught as well.
Just as expected. Because I didn't say that, I'm not going to defend it.
How you lightly dismiss the conversion to Catholicism of pre-eminent Lutheran scholars, theologians, and preachers betrays a view commonly held:
Pre-eminent? Says whom? Commonly held? By whom? I'm sure that Catholics like to think this but I doubt any neutral observer would make that claim.
namely that Bible Christians are “comfortable” only in the shallow end of the theological swimming pool, you try taking them to the deep end and either they do want to go there or if they do they drown or stay afloat by converting to Catholicism as did the author of “Why I Left Protestantism For Catholicism.”
If by "deep end" you mean the doctrines that can't be supported by Scripture but instead must be created from uninspired writings and deemed as "Holy Tradition", then I agree.
The members of the Greek Orthodox Church believe that the only infallible authority is an ecumenical council of all the bishops of the world. They believe that there were only seven such councils held before Eastern Schism, when the Eastern churches split from Rome. They say the charism of infallibility is now inoperative or nonexistent and will be until the Eastern churches are reunited with Rome.
This is in stark contrast to their predecessors at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, who said “Peter has spoken through the mouth of Leo [the then-reigning Pope Leo I].The matter is closed. Let him who will not listen to Leo be anathema.”
Often times in Protestant circles, we hear about the Holy Spirit informing oneself of the Word of God. But there are two things about this that are inherently contradictory.
First, the Word of God is both the written and the unwritten Word (John 21: 25). The early Church Fathers checked and crossed check the written from the unwritten word of Christ for nearly three centuries before they came up the with the authenticity of the canonical texts in the Synod of Rome in AD 382. That authority did not vanish either a thousand years later with the Great Schism or the Reformation eleven centuries later.
Second, the Hoy Spirit is not some weathervane that changes course and direction over time. The Words of Christ have a compelling coherence to it, that He established ONE Church
Matthew 16: 19: “And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” Followed by Matthew 28: 20: “teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you. And behold, “I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age.”
Thus we can all agree there is ONE truth for ALL time.
Thus there are no two sides to this coin you speak of. The center of Catholic worship is the Mass and the Holy Eucharist. You deny this and what’s left is a vapid nonsense open to exploitation by anyone from the likes of a Billy Graham to Jimmy Swaggart or a Benny Hinn or Joel Osteen. They are all cut from the same cloth. Not having a clue about what is the Word of God each gallivants on journey of their own to authoritatively tell us what is the word of God having denied its central truth and yet these same folks find themselves in a conundrum.
Either you accept Petrine infallibility and the validity of the canonical texts or you don’t. If you do not admit to Petrine infallibility, then surely the selection of the books in the Bible is suspect as well.
Thus when mainline Protestant denominations now admit married lesbian and gays as pastors, it not that the Holy Spirit suddenly took flight. They never had the Holy Spirit to begin with. The Holy Spirit is not some bird that takes flight from one branch of Christianity to another.
Rarely have I seen such a collection of misstatements regarding the Orthodox Faith.
“The members of the Greek Orthodox Church believe that the only infallible authority is an ecumenical council of all the bishops of the world.”
Ummm... no. That’’s just silly. Not one of the OEcumical Councils had all the bishops of the world. Where are you getting your information about us from?
“They believe that there were only seven such councils held before Eastern Schism, when the Eastern churches split from Rome.”
Wrong again. There have been nine. The first eight of which occured before the Roman Schism.
“They say the charism of infallibility is now inoperative or nonexistent and will be until the Eastern churches are reunited with Rome.”
WHAAAT???!!! Again, where are you getting your information from?
“This is in stark contrast to their predecessors at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, who said “Peter has spoken through the mouth of Leo [the then-reigning Pope Leo I].The matter is closed. Let him who will not listen to Leo be anathema.””
Pious Roman mythology. The tome was actually received with a great deal of very heated debate. Nor was the Council unanimous as evidenced by the schism of the non-Chalcedonian Churches (the Oriental Orthodox). In the end however Leo’s tome was ratified by the Council which deemed it Orthodox. Romans like to think the council all dropped to bended knee when it was read when in fact it was the Council that ratified Leo’s tome as Orthodox. Leo is commemorated as a Great Orthodox saint.
“Often times in Protestant circles, we hear about the Holy Spirit informing oneself of the Word of God. But there are two things about this that are inherently contradictory.
First, the Word of God is both the written and the unwritten Word (John 21: 25). The early Church Fathers checked and crossed check the written from the unwritten word of Christ for nearly three centuries before they came up the with the authenticity of the canonical texts in the Synod of Rome in AD 382. That authority did not vanish either a thousand years later with the Great Schism or the Reformation eleven centuries later.”
You do realize that the Eastern Churches have never accepted the Roman Canon of Scripture... right?
“Second, the Hoy Spirit is not some weathervane that changes course and direction over time. The Words of Christ have a compelling coherence to it, that He established ONE Church”
Of course, the Orthodox Church. We confess that every time we recite the Nicene Creed. (Which I note that Rome no longer recites, preferring instead the Creed of the Second Council of Lyons. In so doing they have arguably incurred the anathemas of the 3rd, 5th, 6th and 8th Ecumenical Councils which forbade any alterations to the Symbol of Faith.)
“Matthew 16: 19: “And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” Followed by Matthew 28: 20: “teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you. And behold, “I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age.””
The giving of the Keys was to the Church as a whole. It is the foundation of the concept of Oikonomia.
“Thus we can all agree there is ONE truth for ALL time.”
Yes, the Holy Orthodox Catholic Faith.
“Thus there are no two sides to this coin you speak of. The center of Catholic worship is the Mass and the Holy Eucharist. You deny this and what’s left is a vapid nonsense open to exploitation by anyone from the likes of a Billy Graham to Jimmy Swaggart or a Benny Hinn or Joel Osteen. They are all cut from the same cloth. Not having a clue about what is the Word of God each gallivants on journey of their own to authoritatively tell us what is the word of God having denied its central truth and yet these same folks find themselves in a conundrum.”
I don’t think anyone is arguing that Rome has clung to much more of the Orthodox faith then her “Reformed” offspring.
“Either you accept Petrine infallibility and the validity of the canonical texts or you don’t. If you do not admit to Petrine infallibility, then surely the selection of the books in the Bible is suspect as well.”
See above.
“Thus when mainline Protestant denominations now admit married lesbian and gays as pastors, it not that the Holy Spirit suddenly took flight. They never had the Holy Spirit to begin with. The Holy Spirit is not some bird that takes flight from one branch of Christianity to another.”
Now you are sounding decidedly Orthodox. This is why we generally do not accept the grace of sacraments outside the Church.
This won’t wash.
From Christianity’s beginnings, the Church has been attacked by those introducing false teachings, or heresies.
The Bible warned us this would happen. Paul told his young protégé, Timothy, “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths” (2 Tim. 4:3–4).
Faiths outside the Catholic Church are not just two sides of the same coin as you earlier posted. There is the genuine coin that established ONE truth and the rest are all cheap counterfeits just as Paul warned.
The spirit of Alinksy is alive on FR!
I'm glad someone else noticed that. I had a good chuckle over that phrase. Like cattle stampeding to the slaughter...
The only "droves" I have noticed recently is the rapid decline of many denominational churches who are not teaching the Word. People are hungry for the Spirit and Truth. They will not find either in religion, and the rituals and reasoning of man.
“This won’t wash.”
What specifically?
“From Christianity’s beginnings, the Church has been attacked by those introducing false teachings, or heresies.
The Bible warned us this would happen. Paul told his young protégé, Timothy, “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths” (2 Tim. 4:3–4).”
No argument here.
“Faiths outside the Catholic Church are not just two sides of the same coin as you earlier posted. There is the genuine coin that established ONE truth and the rest are all cheap counterfeits just as Paul warned.”
The problem is that the Catholic Church is outside the Church. The One True Church is the Orthodox Church. Rome is at best in schism and arguably is heretical. So I see no contradiction at all.
Two sides of the same heretical coin.
So Petrine Infallibility suddenly vanishes with the Great Schism?
The Orthodox Church is an accident of history. The Byzantine Empire collapsed suddenly in 1453. A soldier forgot to lock one of the gates of the fortified city of Constantinople, and the Turks sacked the city. With the Turks in control of the capital city, the rest of the empire crumbled quickly. Under pressure from Muslims, most of the Eastern churches repudiated their union with Rome, and this is the split that persists to this day.
The patriarch of Constantinople sided with the heretical, iconoclastic emperors.
The current Eastern Orthodox communion dates from the 1450s, making it a mere six decades older than the Protestant Reformation.
Ironically, in the Church’s eighth-century struggle against the Iconoclastic heresy (which sought to eliminate all sacred images), it was the pope and the Western bishops mainly who fought for the Catholic practice of venerating icons, which is still very much a part of Orthodox liturgy and spirituality.
“So Petrine Infallibility suddenly vanishes with the Great Schism?”
Petrine Infallibility is a heretical doctrine and theological innovation of the West.
“The Orthodox Church is an accident of history. The Byzantine Empire collapsed suddenly in 1453. A soldier forgot to lock one of the gates of the fortified city of Constantinople, and the Turks sacked the city.”
Seriously I have no idea where you are getting your fantasy versions of history from. You are confusing the Empire with the Church. The Empire fell at least temporarily in 1204 when the Papal armies of the Fourth Crusade sacked the Imperial City in one of the greatest atrocities in the history of Christendom. There followed almost a century of Catholic military occupation which although eventually thrown off, left the Empire fatally weakened. The Turks may have administered the coup de grace, but make no mistake, it was Rome that struck the fatal blow. A knife in the back, from which the Empire never recovered.
“With the Turks in control of the capital city, the rest of the empire crumbled quickly. Under pressure from Muslims, most of the Eastern churches repudiated their union with Rome, and this is the split that persists to this day.”
Most of the local churches had severed communion with Rome long before the final collapse in 1453.
“The patriarch of Constantinople sided with the heretical, iconoclastic emperors.”
Fair enough. We have had heretical patriarchs. But of course we don’t claim any one bishop is infallible. Rome of course has had its share of heretics sitting on the patriarchal throne. And none of our patriarchs are proclaiming the heretical double procession of the Holy Spirit at every liturgy.
“The current Eastern Orthodox communion dates from the 1450s, making it a mere six decades older than the Protestant Reformation.”
Says you. Not even the Roman Church makes such a risible claim.
“Ironically, in the Church’s eighth-century struggle against the Iconoclastic heresy (which sought to eliminate all sacred images), it was the pope and the Western bishops mainly who fought for the Catholic practice of venerating icons, which is still very much a part of Orthodox liturgy and spirituality.”
Rubbish. The Western Church was largely unaffected by iconoclasm. They were little more than bystanders. Exactly two(!) representatives of the Pope were sent, one bishop and one monk, though in fairness they supported the Orthodox position. Rome was still Orthodox back then.
“Rome was still Orthodox back then.” Oh so by your your lights at one point before the schism, this “was” the true Church Christ established with the guarantee that it shall last until the consummation of the world, but somewhere around AD 1054 this Orthodox offshoot became the true career of the faith. Thus the Holy Spirit infallibly guided the Church up until this time but then like a bird took off and landed on the doors of the Orthodox Church.
This is incredibly convoluted thinking. The Church still has Eastern rites in communion with Rome where Petrine authority is accepted. Those that don’t are simply schisms and no less heretical than the thousands of Protestant denominations that sprung from the curse of the Reformation where each person essentially interprets the Word of God guided by the Holy Spirit from the Billy Grahams to the Joel Osteens and Jim Jones’! Wonderful isn’t that we then have not a single truth but to each according to his/her interpretation. By these lights those mainline Protestant denominations that allow for married gay and lesbian pastors can claim their “own” authentic interpretation of scripture. Kumbaya!
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